Cycling UK Forum

Colin63 wrote:... Ultimately poor grammar is only poor if it prevents someone from clearly stating what it is that they mean ...

Hmm. Poor grammar does prevent someone stating what they mean. Or to turn it around, good grammar allows someone to state more accurately what they mean.

dewi1 wrote:In the media etc., I agree that standards need to be upheld and every effort should be made to spell correctly and to use grammar appropriately.

On forums like this, I think we all have to remember that whilst some people may be able to spell correctly, not all may have the ability to do so, and indeed some may be hindered by dyslexia or other issues that prevent them from doing so. I would hate to think that people with interesting tales and opinions to share felt unable to do so if they feared ridicule or censure.

Exactly!

reohn2 wrote:Whilst I agree with Mrs T regarding a professional's bad spelling,to those who think anyone is a "moron" or "thick" because they can't spell I have only one thing to say,it is you who are the "morons" and "thick" and prejudice.
If theres anything that gets my back up its academically clever people, considering others, who don't use either paper and pen or keyboard and PC regularly as somehow lesser humans than yourselves(which is what you're implying) as the lowest form of prejudice.
Worse than that is to excuse it by claiming its "hardwired" in themselves and claiming they can't help it! You can help it, its called putting you're prejudice to one side and accepting the fact that other people have other talents who could leave you for dead in their own line of work!
If you can't see beyond someones spelling and gammar then God help you!

I agree with reohn2.
Journalists, TV newsreaders, weather forecasters and most professionals should be able to write and speak grammatically but many people who consider themselves highly literate will freely admit to being innumerate.
As such, they are only partially educated.
There are many people who have poor word skills but are highly numerate with excellent spatial and manual skills who contribute much more to society than many of those who's main ability is to write a report or memo.
Having said that I'm appalled by the standard of English in the media today.
When I was working I found the standards of what would now be the 50 to 55 age group particularly poor. They were educated when little or no emphasis was given to the teaching of English grammar with the result that it wasn't unusual for graduates to write "sentences" without verbs.
Bring back Grammar schools I say and properly funded Technical schools.
Jonty

jonty

A couple of years ago, I was on a job in Grimsby. Not far from the Freshney Place Shopping Centre was a furniture shop where two professionally made signs were displayed overlooking the forecourt - STRICKLY NO PARKING
I wouldn't be surprised if they were still there

Unfortunately I didn't have a camera with me at the time
Steve

Jonty wrote: Bring back Grammar schools I say and properly funded Technical schools.
Jonty

jonty

I'm not sure that would solve your problem, Jonty. The 80% (or whatever) who went to secondary modern schools would probably still cause you offence with their appalling grammar and spelling.

I went to Shevington County Secondary School. 1964 to 1969. It wasn't a Secondary Modern school.

Secondary Modern schools were an experiment from post war. Some carried on into the late 60s, but most went over to being just Secondary. Secondary Modern was a sort of education that taught practical skills and concentrated on them to give a rounded education to prepare pupils for factories or industry. After the 4th year, you went to work/apprenticeships or went on to Tech college/further education for any qualifications.

We did practical subjects but also academic ones too and I achieved 5 O levels. Sec Mod schools never had a 5th year.

Hi Mick
I suspect you received a good education. I think much more emphasis should be given to practical/technical education. We need more people who can make things IMHO.
We have more than enough celebrities, lawyers, bankers, politicians, media types and public relations experts and most of them IMO are grossly overpaid although they may be able to write in grammatical sentences.
Some young people are academic and some are not. Some are interested in technical things and some aren't. We need an educational offer which meets varied abilities and interests.
There's no sense teaching French to young people who are barely speak English or quadratic equations to young people who can barely count. And there's no sense in trying to explain to me how to disassemble a Sturmey Archer 4 speed hub.
I went to a Grammar school which was excellent academically but I never did anything practical which I've always considered a serious omission.
jonty

Jonty wrote:Hi Mick
I suspect you received a good education. I think much more emphasis should be given to practical/technical education. We need more people who can make things IMHO.............
jonty

We would also need industry to employ those people! which is something successive governments have been hellbent on destroying,claiming that we are now a "service" industry nation.Make(or not) of that what you will,but everyone can't work in IT or the media and they won't be working in the public sector,police or healthservice either, by the time this shower have done their worst.

I've just listened to the first couple of minutes of the Radio 4 10pm news and I was reminded of a couple of the things that regularly irritate me on the Beeb. One is a frequent disregard of the sequence of tenses in indirect speech; another is inappropriate stress patterns in spoken reports. (I presume this comes from newsreaders and reporters reading from some sort of screen which has only parts of sentences in a large font and which prevents the reader from being able to read ahead to discover the sense of what they are reading.)

As to grammar, I've seen this from different viewpoints at different times in my life. The hardest to accept initially was having something imposed from above at work when it was demonstrably wrong. I'm not referring to some music hall parody of "I was proceeding in a northerly direction..." but straightforward mistakes. During my initial training we were taught first aid by the drill sergeant. I may well have mentioned on here before that the bit on drug overdoses said that the casualty might have dilated pupils. When he had explained that this meant 'like pinpricks' and I had suggested that it meant 'enlarged' he put it to the vote rather than consult a dictionary and although the other ninety-odd men had come to realise I was probably right, they all sided with him. (Think of Lah-di-dah Gunner Graham but with a Yorkshire accent and, relative to everybody else, the height of Gunner Sugden, with a helmet to scale.)

In retirement I enjoy doing as I like. I know I have some idiosyncrasies I use on here which I have never used elsewhere - such as writing 'and similar' ( and I only began using so many dashes instead of commas on here.) And I have developed a habit of sometimes ending with a sentence beginning with 'And.'

I'm also finding that my spelling is getting worse. Some of that is through not bothering to check what I've written, but I fear it's also a sign of aging because I'm finding that I can't think of the word I want to use.

Finally, it's interesting to see how many posts on this thread have a defensive structure on the lines "I'm no expert but..."
............................................................................................................
Others have posted faster than me (or: faster than I have.)

We have more than enough celebrities, lawyers, bankers, politicians, media types and public relations experts and most of them IMO are grossly overpaid although they may be able to write in grammatical sentences.

... while fully exploiting the subtle ambiguities* of English to achieve their own ends.

* I really had to struggle to drag that word up from my vocabulary.

If anyone cares (and why should they?) there is nothing wrong with starting a sentence or even paragraph with "and". And there never was; it's an urban myth.

snibgo wrote:If anyone cares (and why should they?) there is nothing wrong with starting a sentence or even paragraph with "and". And there never was; it's an urban myth.

And to think I used to care.

I am 47 and had the unfortunate experience of being taught decimal and imperial systems (neither particularly well) and left school in 1979 with a pile of essentially worthless CSE certificates and one O level ( a D in physics ). I am guessing the teachers were good enough and did their best with the material at hand.

My written communcation is good enough for the settings I frequent (e.g. here or report writing or submitting an essay) . However, I still have the feeling of inadequacy when people point out how scruffy my writing is. And yet they cannot hold their own in a verbal debate. They can structure a sentence and know what a 'passive verb' is but sometimes have little to say?

My hand writing still causes me angst and is one of the things I would love to have the time to spend doing and to develop........that said there are personal limits to some of the skills we can develop. This includes language - written or spoken. Some people scale the dizzy heights others scrape by.

Alongside the above tools of language (numeracy/literacy) one should always use spell check if one is not a trained typist or word processor (if it matters in the context you are writing in), or and this to me is the key - is a 'professional communicator' as opposed to just yer avrige thicko'..................... that is where the eror - if any lies [sic]. That said those in the media arent professionally educating us they are just offering opinion - if they were I would have more of an issue with a dodgy sentence or an incorrectly structured sentence (within the parameters I set). I can take or leave what the media spouts.

Language changes over time whether we like it or not due to various influences (Shakespeare any one?). As tools come along so does 'liberation'. How can people be expected to communicate on a screen less than 1" square using full words and grammar and achieve the speed desired (texting). I agree though just because we have the means doesnt always mean we should follow the direction that the liberation suggests.

Whether we feel use of a 'style' of language dilutes or reinforces a message or not depends on the user and the context. I have worked on my language/communication skills for years because I feel I was 'kept down' in some regard due to my lack of education, accent, poor language skills and in other regard due to my lack of ability or skill. It has paid dividends and has led to work I wanted and given me access to the secret club of the academics (or should that be The Academics ).

I find the use of 'brought' instead of 'bought' intensely irritating. Why? Because to me it is beyond the limit I accept as accurate, I also find the lack of the words 'to the' in a sentence irritating e.g. I will go toilet instead of I will go to the toilet but that is a 'Swindonism' I think and I can still figure out the intention

Therein lies the rub - despite the vehicle can we understand the intention, just because we cannot understand doesnt make the other wrong, it takes two. If we can understand enough to point out where we feel someone has gone 'grammatically wrong', perhaps we should have the grace to point it out - in a way that is acceptable to both parties.

With regard to the 'media' - I wouldnt bother. With regard to my peers I try to be sensitive in pointing out what I feel their error is if it matters.

CU all L8rs

Lawrie9 wrote:The amount of times you see professional mispelt with a double f is quite remarkable especially on websites where " we offer a proffesional service" On ebay I have seen a laddies bike for sale and click for lagar image and once received the plague for the best stand at a show.

It always amazes that website advertising some sort of serivce are not proof read first for grammar, spelling punctuation and inaccuracies.
Someone in my family has such a website and it is full of the above mistakes I did suggest that they should not have paid for the website designer until it was proof-read etc and correct.................

eileithyia wrote:

Lawrie9 wrote:The amount of times you see professional mispelt with a double f is quite remarkable especially on websites where " we offer a proffesional service" On ebay I have seen a laddies bike for sale and click for lagar image and once received the plague for the best stand at a show.

It always amazes that website advertising some sort of serivce are not proof read first for grammar, spelling punctuation and inaccuracies.
Someone in my family has such a website and it is full of the above mistakes I did suggest that they should not have paid for the website designer until it was proof-read etc and correct.................

Yes! Where it matters.

If the website has inaccuracies it implies lack of attention to detail? Therefore would I want their service above anothers? Does it matter on Ebay? Not to me. As long as the price is right .... erh should that be correct And I can figure out what it is they are selling e.g. four candles or fork handles ? Apologies to the two Ronnies - or should that be The Two Ronnies.

Lawrie9 wrote:The amount of times

Surely, the number of times

Steve (wot lives in a conservatory and chucks many stones )

Greybeard wrote:

Lawrie9 wrote:The amount of times

Surely, the number of times

Or even the times.