Illiteracy in the media

[Jonty]

Sorry - I should have said that the UK now means England, Wales, Scotland and Nothern Ireland.
jonty

[bodach]

What have I started? Jonty and Meic talk a lot of sense. The UK is referred overseas as England because the anglocentric media has over many years taught them that this
is so. There was an effort to remove Scotland from the map at one time in the 1930's I think. In my first distillery there was an official sign still displayed over a door with the license granted to an address in North Britain rather than Scotland. This will not be taught in history classes as it never caught on and was quietly dropped. Only those who belong to Wales or Scotland will understand the irritation of being constantly referred to as England. I am no a royalist but could not help noticing that much of the media referred to the future queen of England in relation to some event coinciding with the Scottish parliamentary elections. Incidentally I was at the launch of the QE2 in Clydebank. When the name which was kept secret up until the actual launch was pronounced there was a short shocked silence followed by a chorous of boos. This has been removed from any films of the event.There cannot be a QE2 in Scotland as we never had a QE1 in the past. I think this rant will do for now but I could go on for ages.

[Jonty]

I don't get too upset about Elizabeth 11 being called "Queen of England." I think it's just usage. I suppose special post boxes could have been ordered for Scotland saying Elizabeth 1.
Not only of course is she queen of England but also Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, the Isle of Mann, the Channel Isles (I think), Canada, Australia, New Zealand and lots of other places.
I don't think one should get too upset or annoyed when no malice is intended, or ambiguous terms are used because of common parlance or indeed unawareness.
You must remember Bodach, most people in England don't know which country they live in and have never been north of Manchester and the English educational system isn't on a par with that in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.
jonty

[reohn2]

This is getting more convoluted than Einstein's theories from the other thread

[Biscuit]

Biscuit better do as a couple of footballers did recently after being banned from playing. They sat in their box and scratched their faces with a finger extending on either side of the nose facing the tv cameras. Now lets get back to fighting about language.

Not sure of the intention there However I dont fight about language much more important things to 'fight' about. I do however note not only literacy or otherwise in the media but also accents and how they can affect life. Sometimes some subjects need a little humour injected in however my suggestion was serious - try it with one finger first and note the 'plum in mouth' effect.

As this thread has moved onto Great or otherwise Britain, 'monarchy', launching of ships etc I shall get my coat.

...the far north when they really mean Manchester which I suppose is about the middle ( of England anyway). ....

Now where did I put my pure bred English man badge and my BNP membership

I'm sorry was this a thread about Literacy or otherwise in the media?

Please note the wink emoticon -just in case any offence was caused as it wasnt intended.

[0xymoron]

Human beings use all sorts of methods to promote group solidarity and exclude non-members, all of which usually can be characterised as forms of ridicule or worse (I was recently reading posts on a single speed forum, and the bile directed at those people who choose to buy a fixie off the shelf, rather than building it themselves from the frame upwards, was something to behold).

Language is a prime characteristic used for delineating the group. The disdain expressed in some of the posts in this thread for people who use poor grammar (whether by accident or deliberately) will only be matched by the contempt felt by people who use "textese" or "street language" for people who "speak posh".

[snibgo]

The reason we mainly speak English throughout the British and Irish Isles is due to English (Norman) conquest and power.

You seem to be confusing the Normans with the Angles.

[Mick F]

Incidentally, does anybody doubt that football has made Manchester one of the most famous cities in the world?

I doubt it.

Slavery, cotton mills, coal, the River Mersey, railways and canals made Manchester the most famous, wealthy and prosperous city in the world.

Football is a poor and recent second reason.

[DougieB]

I don't get too upset about Elizabeth 11 being called "Queen of England." I think it's just usage. I suppose special post boxes could have been ordered for Scotland saying Elizabeth 1.

you're right, it's not that much of a big deal. but it grates on the soul of some who are not english. a bit like someone who constantly mis-pronounces your name, either through lack of care or intention, despite knowing the correct way to pronounce it.

I remember the UK weather map on the BBC news in the 70's/80's. It was tilted backwards, so Scotland was about the size of Kent. A single weather magnet covered Scotland. The BBC is also quite commonly referred to as the EBC up here.

[Jonty]

The reason we mainly speak English throughout the British and Irish Isles is due to English (Norman) conquest and power.

You seem to be confusing the Normans with the Angles.

Hi Snibgo
The Normans conquered England, then Wales, then Ireland and had a great influence in Scotland throught intermarriage with the Scottish royal family. The Angles and Saxons settled in England and parts of Scotland, and fought with the Romano-British and later the Danes.
They did not conquer Wales or Ireland although there were Viking settlements in Ireland.
The thirst to conquer and the beginnings of a "British" empire started with the Normans who defeated the Anglo-Saxons at the battle of Hastings.
jonty

[Jonty]

I don't get too upset about Elizabeth 11 being called "Queen of England." I think it's just usage. I suppose special post boxes could have been ordered for Scotland saying Elizabeth 1.

you're right, it's not that much of a big deal. but it grates on the soul of some who are not english. a bit like someone who constantly mis-pronounces your name, either through lack of care or intention, despite knowing the correct way to pronounce it.

I remember the UK weather map on the BBC news in the 70's/80's. It was tilted backwards, so Scotland was about the size of Kent. A single weather magnet covered Scotland. The BBC is also quite commonly referred to as the EBC up here.

You're right in the sense that we have all got to be sensitive. I suspect that when the GPO ordered the post boxes noone realized that Scotland in the past had its own separate Royal Family none of whom were called Elizabeth. I doubt if anyone deliberately tried to insult Scottish sensitivities.
I suggest it's counter-productive getting annoyed simply because of lack of awareness.
I'm an "Ulster Scot" and I've lived in Northern Ireland, Scotland and England.
In general I've found the English much more tolerant than the Scots or the Northern Irish.
On the weather issue I would like to see the TV cameras panning in from different directions over the image of the UK rather than the starting point always being the south east of England.
The camera could occasionally start from the Outer Hebrides and move south. This would of course make Scotland bigger and England smaller or they could start from Norway and pan west or from Ireland and pan east.
jonty

[thirdcrank]

Incidentally, does anybody doubt that football has made Manchester one of the most famous cities in the world?

I doubt it.

Slavery, cotton mills, coal, the River Mersey, railways and canals made Manchester the most famous, wealthy and prosperous city in the world.

Football is a poor and recent second reason.

I'm not suggesting that Manchester didn't exist pre-soccer or that it is somehow built on the game, only that its modern fame is. Obviously, the things you mention made Manchester into one of the most important industrial centres in the British Empire and the wider world but I'm pretty certain that if you were to be able to count heads, the number of people across the world today who have heard of Manchester and who are counted in zillions, would far exceed the number of people who knew that the cotton they were picking etc was destined for Manchester. It's a similar sort of thing to Liverpool and the Beatles.

Put another way, how many cities are there across the world where a single image can be used by film makers etc as shorthand to say this is...?

London = Tower Bridge; Paris = Eiffel Tower. etc Manchester = ? I can't think of much besides a Man U top or something along those lines.

[Jonty]

The Rutherford Laboratory at the University of Manchester?
jonty

[meic]

I cant think of any such building despite having done a fair amount of work despatch riding in Manchester.

I think Coronation Street is my main image of the city.

Or Boddington's brewery next door to the nick.

Interestingly in Oz (and I think the USA & Canada) Manchester is actually a type of shop!
I never figured out exactly what made a shop classify itself a Manchester shop but it was mainly based on selling fabric, I think.

[Mick F]

Yes TC, you're right of course, it was just my dig against popular modernism. It's all too easy to forget one's roots, they get washed away with media hype.

You speak to Man U and City fans, and ask them what they think of their football clubs. I don't mean the results or the loyalty to the clubs, but what they think about going to the matches and the experiences compared to before the multi-million hype. Ask them what they think of the astronomical figures being paid to the players. Ask them what they think of the owners of the clubs and the massive debts they service.

There's no atmosphere in the stadia, and the seats are seemingly filled with corporate people. The man in the street can't afford the gate fee. £40 a ticket I think. I was told the other day that Arsenal charge £100 a ticket. Is it worth it? Somehow I doubt it now we have big HD screens in pubs. You can watch the game over a beer or three for a lot less than £40.

Manchester - and Liverpool for that matter - must never forget that they held most of the wealth of the whole country. The wonderful civic buildings in the city are testament to that. Now what? Football.

Sad, or what.