Cycling UK Forum

I'm after the thoughts of our techies, not the nerdy programmer techy like me, the cool bike building techy like you guys.

I have an old Carera Kraken MTB (7 years old) which I was thinking of getting rid of. I have another MTB (Giant) and a couple of road bikes and the missus is going on about the room the bikes take up in the garage. However, the frame is a good solid (Alu) frame and it's a shame to let it go.

I was thinking of turning it into a 26inch Wheel tourer/load carrier.

The frame has lugs for a carrier etc and because it's set up for V-brakes I was thinking of sticking with them rather than going with CP as per most tourers.

Without going on and sending ya'll to sleep, I'll get to the point.

The bike currently has a front suspension fork and I was thinking of changing this to a hard fork which will make fitting racks and guards easier.

However, this will alter the geometry of the bike, maybe lowering the front of the bike and bringing the front wheel in a little too close to the feet.

Has anybody tried similar before with any success?

Also open to ideas on the sort of bars I should use. I was thinking drops but open to any alternative suggestions.

Gazza

2 Tubs - I'm not really a cool bike building techy - have not converted an MTB but have built a few touring bikes over the years
Just a couple of thoughts that might help -
V brakes are fairly standard on touring bikes now and very efficient.
There are front racks available for suspension forks - try SJS if you decide to stick with your existing forks
On the continent a variety of 'ergo bars' are popular for touring - I've got some fitted to my tourer and I rebuilt my husbands bikes with types of these as well. Really depends whether you like drops - we had them for years but ergo bars give a variety of hand positions with a more upright position. If you are interested look at www.humpert.com (lenkerbugel is handlebar) there are a whole variety of shapes.

changing to a rigid fork won't necessarily change the geometry and if it did it wouldn't necessarily be too bad. My guess is that the suspension fork you've got has around 80mm of travel. If you get a Kona P2 rigid fork (for example) with an axle to crown length of 420mm it will have the same height as your suspension fork (100mm travel suspension forks require 440mm axle to crown length).
Wiggle has kona p2 forks for sale as does ebay. There are of course other manufacturers (on-one - http://www.one-one.co.uk for example.)
A non suspension corrected fork may be ok - if you've got access to one it's worth a try. Obviously the greater travel of your suspension fork the bigger the difference between a corrected and non corrected fork.
A suspension fork does make front panniers difficult but not impossible. Suspension adds a bit of weight but does make rough roads a bit more comfortable. My solution is a trailer (http://www.carryfreedom.com) - allowing me to use my MTB for touring if I want. I'm not a hardened tourist - If I was I'd get a specific touring bike - but it's an adequate compromise.
Hope this helps.

I cannot help you with the suspension question, except to say you are right to be alert to the risk of creating overlap, where your feet may catch the front mudguard.

As far as the brakes go, there are reasons why UK tourers end up with centrepulls:-

There is something of a tradition in the UK for committed riders using drop handlebars. (I will miss out the reasons) Modern dual-pivot sidepull brakes generally have poor clearance for mudguards and heavier tyres. (Deeper drop versions are available but have not really caught on.) The type of drop handlebar brake levers which also work as gear levers for indexed brakes are unable (without extra gadgets) to work V brakes, so low profile centrepulls - cantilevers are fitted because they 'tick all the boxes.'

If tou want drops and are willing to forgo combined brake/gear levers, there is a model of lever for drops which will pull enough cable for V brakes (I can never remember the make- Dia Compe?? but it is the 287V I think) These are generally used with bar end shifter levers. (SJSC have this set-up on a lot of their bikes.)

Modern levers for flat bars will operate V brakes.

Reading between the lines, "tourer/load carrier" doesn' t mean full on tourer, but a useful utility bike that is a bit of a do anything machine. So, if it were mine (and it's not!) I'd do the following:

keep the suspension forks
Whale tale/crud catcher rather than proper mudguards
keep the V brakes
keep the flat bars (trim the width a bit maybe).
Put on bar ends for an alternative position.
Add a rack.
Total cost - around £60.
This gives you plenty of "bang for buck" and will let you test out the concept. If it gets pinched down the shops, it isn't a big loss.

For general loads and lightweight touring buy a set of panniers.

If you need to carry a big load or go on a major tour - add a trailer (£160-£250 depending on your choice) which will:

work on your other bikes
last for years
work on your new touring bike when you want
have a good resale value.

Has anybody tried similar before with any success?

Yes, well, sort of.

I put a Kona P2 fork on the front: mg eyelets and availible in a variety of lengths so that you can keep the geometry the same (although you might want a slightly shorter one to make the bike handle a bit faster on the road).

Problem if your frame is say 100mm or more corrected: the forks will fit fine but you'll need to fashion a bracket to get the mudguard down near the tyre and away from the brake cable - not a big job but something to bear in mind.

Likewise, if you do go for a long travel replacement fork then you've got no chance of fitting road brakes (ie side pull, Dp, etc) 'cos the drop will be too much even for deep drop touring brakes.

But as you want to stay with the Vs that shouldn't be a problem for you.

Do you want drop bars? This could cause another problem - MTBs tend to have longer top tubes than roadies so you might have to fit a very short sten to get the reach right.

Also, drop bars with V brakes means either using 287v levers or travel agents/Vdaptors. I used travel agents, they certainly will stop you but the modulation isn't great.

If you fit drop bar STI levers to do the shifting then you'll probably need a new, road specific, front mech as the cable pull will be different.

None of the above will stop you doing the change but it just adds more complication!

In the end I gave up on my conversion: Zaskar frame with drop bars and Kona P2 fork added, Sora STI and travelagents to work the V brakes, because the reach was a smidge too long (despite a 5cm stem) and the bars were too low (the head tube was only 12cm and the steerer was precut). I've now bought a Dawes One Down frame (designed for drop bars and 26inch wheels) to shift all the kit onto and the Zaskar has gone back to being a SS MTB.

I did a very successful conversion of a 1990 Marin to drops.

I didn't use Vs, but old style cantis with DiaCompe 287 drop levers (287V is the V brake version.) Frankly there isn't much difference, the 287V has a bit more friction so loses the advantage over the old cantis.

The top tube is longer, but with 3TTT Morphe Randonneur bars which reach forwards less it all worked OK - I also had to swap to a slightly shorter stem.

A fair few of my friends have borrowed the bike over the years and all commented how good it is to ride. Fully loaded with 4 panniers and a barbag it's rock steady even at 40mph. The MTB frame stiffness is certainly an asset.

Email me if you want photos via private message.

Thanks for all the replies.

Some very useful advice here.

I have decided to go ahead with the fork change as I'd prefer something stiffer up front*

I'm going to strip the bike down, get the frame stripped down and resprayed (or sandblasted and powder coated) and take it from there.

Not sure whether to use drops or something a little more creative (butterfly bars etc)

I'll let you all know how I get on.

Any other suggestions gratefully recieved!

Gazza

* Keep your Kenneth Williams comments to yourself >;o)

I scrounged a good TREK frame from the council dump in Darwin, Australia - it was a good frame in its day - and did exactly what you want to do, as a dirt road tourer (there ain't much bitumen in the Territory). Works fine!! I find that I play with my bars too much to comment on drip, but I do tend to prefer Scott bullhorns for this type of touring. And I also prefer canti brakes. This particular bike has marins on it.

Main advice is go for the rigid forks, as the momenum loos with shocks is ridiculaous over a distance on corrugations. And be sure to have the forks tapped so that you can rigidly bolt on your pannier racks!!!!

I also recommend a Brooks summit saddle. . .

I was going to pm hamster but i though answers might be useful to others.

could anyone explain the difference in geomery between a dedicated 26in touring/trekking frame and a rigid forked mountain bike frame?

how might this affect handling?

with regard to the long top tube length, could one simply use a slightly smaller frame if using drops?

I could do with not spending a thousand pounds on a tourer with slightly smaller wheels so I am interested in knowing if this works and if there are any good old frames to look out for, i was thinking perhaps an old 531.

thanks in anticipation...

You'll probably find a lot of steel mountain bikes are 4130, since it's so strong. The Orange P7 is meant to be a very good steel bike, and Marin do the Bear Valley which you may want to look into.

8Ball wrote:I was going to pm hamster but i though answers might be useful to others.

could anyone explain the difference in geomery between a dedicated 26in touring/trekking frame and a rigid forked mountain bike frame?

how might this affect handling?

with regard to the long top tube length, could one simply use a slightly smaller frame if using drops?

I could do with not spending a thousand pounds on a tourer with slightly smaller wheels so I am interested in knowing if this works and if there are any good old frames to look out for, i was thinking perhaps an old 531.

thanks in anticipation...

MTBs tend to have slightly more relaxed angles so that they arte more predictable when bouncing along on the rough stuff. Likewise, a tourer will also be more neutral than a race bike.
MTBs are built for flat bars and thus will tend to a longer TT than a drop bar specific frame.

You could use a smaller frame if you wanted drops but you _may_ encounter further probs: wheel base could be slightly reduce leading to toe interference with front wheel/mg and heel interference with pannier, head tube may be shorter meaning that if it's an Ahead jobbie and stem is already cut then the bars may be lower than you want, and if your frame is very small you might find you can't get two bottle cages to fit in it. As I say, you 'may' get these problems but then again you may not - you just need to have a good look at the frame that you are considering before taking the plunge.

BTW, if you want a drop bar 26 inch wheel steel tourer then www.bikesheduk.co.uk are doing Dawes One Down frames for about £150. Or complete sardars for less than £500.

A lot of the geometry differences will also depend on the make of bike - Marins always seemed a bit more tippy than some others which ride like armchairs. Konas always seemed the fastest handling, and might not be quite so good.

Frankly the steel alloy strength is probably irrelevant as the tubes are all so oversized - compare to a Dawes Galaxy or similar from 5 years ago with its skinny tubes.

The fact that this topic can be discussed here without attracting disapprobation has inspired me to upgrade myself from a lurker of some months standing! I have had a mtb for some years and now feel the need to make some changes so I can reach pastures new. Unfortunately funds are not unlimited
My bike is a Voodoo Erzulie from '97. It was designed for suspension forks but supplied with a rigid fork specced to optimise the steering geometry. I was told. It has always handled well at any rate. Its basically an LX groupset and is generally in very good order.
Since committing myself, at Christmas, to a tour of Pembrokeshire later in the year I've had a pleasant couple of months of pipedreams about the stunning improvements I could make. I've considered reframing, drops, radical changes to brakes and gears, rediscovered a lot about component incompatibilities and come to the conclusion that Less is More - value for money!
I had rack mounts fitted about three years ago but never followed through because my local Halfords couldnt offer me a solution to the heel hits pack problem I encountered.
I have now decided to have the frame refinished (finally ), change the chainset for one with a 48tooth top ring, and invest in a Tubus rack and some panniers. I was very encouraged by the review of 26" tourers in this months Cycle+ especially as my frame geometry is similiar and the chainstay length is comparable. No more angst - it'll work!
I decided I could live with the flat bars, possibly using a shorter stem to take a little body weight off my hands and some anatomical grips. If necessary I can look into custom bars at a later date.
Using 1.75 Travel contacts I expect to be able to fit mudguards even with the V brakes. If I decide to run bigger tyres for any reason I'll just have to revert to mtb guards, though I did toy with the idea of fitting canti's using a brake booster plate to mount a rear cable hanger.
I think this approach makes the most of what I already have. Discarding too much makes me feel guilty about waste. This way I feel free to contemplate something with 700c wheels next year!

I rode Portland Oregon - San Francisco on an MTB with 1.25" slicks. It was absolutely fine. Bar-ends make a big difference so that you can change your hand position. Other than that the bike was fine, but I did get some numbness in my hands - hence the move to drops. I did that conversion 12 years ago, and have never thought of going back.

But don't worry about it, flat bars will be OK.