Dutch style facilities in the UK

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OldGreyBeard
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Dutch style facilities in the UK

Post by OldGreyBeard »

On the thread "CTC and Dutch-standard facilities, http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=47833 there has been some discussion of Dutch style facilities in the UK. There does seem to be more than one might think so it seemed a good idea to try to collate where they are.

By Dutch style I mean physically segregated from traffic and segregated from pedestrians either physically or by a white line and above all no giving way at minor roads.

Streeview links would be great :D

Some examples so far:
Marston Road, Oxford. Decades old. If you've got the space and the money then you can do it (it's just that generally we have neither). http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&layer=c&cbll=51.762019,-1.235761&panoid=haxYme7xo8WtG7rWQY0IeA&cbp=12,335.38,,0,5&ll=51.762017,-1.235758&spn=0.00119,0.002411&t=h&z=19

Marston Road dates from the 1930s. There's nothing new :!:



There are also elephants feet type crossings in Aylesbury
Dawes Galaxy 1982; Raleigh 3 speed 2007; Brompton M6R 2006
One of the most important days of my life was when I learned to ride a bicycle - Michael Palin
bloods-a-rover
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Re: Dutch style facilities in the UK

Post by bloods-a-rover »

Marston Road, Oxford. Are you honestly telling me that this junction is up to Dutch standards?

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie= ... 08937&z=17

Here's another one: a cycle path through lovely MK. It can't even retain priority over a cul-de-sac:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie= ... 71497&z=14

I don't think snapshots of single links can be compared to the very high quality of overall Dutch network planning. It only takes one dodgy side turning to make a cycle path into a nightmare which everyone loses confidence in. Look at that Marston Road junction - what would you do when you get to the side road?
OldGreyBeard
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Re: Dutch style facilities in the UK

Post by OldGreyBeard »

bloods-a-rover wrote:Marston Road, Oxford. Are you honestly telling me that this junction is up to Dutch standards?

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie= ... 08937&z=17

Here's another one: a cycle path through lovely MK. It can't even retain priority over a cul-de-sac:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie= ... 71497&z=14

I don't think snapshots of single links can be compared to the very high quality of overall Dutch network planning. It only takes one dodgy side turning to make a cycle path into a nightmare which everyone loses confidence in. Look at that Marston Road junction - what would you do when you get to the side road?

It was suggested to me by another poster and I did do a virtual ride along it in Streetview and I did see where the path did give way to the minor road but at least some if not all of them didn't.

None of the Redway paths have priority over side roads and the Redway wasn't being suggested as an example of Ducth style as it isn't. The older parts of the network are better than that shown. On the pluse side there are a great many underpasses for crossing the many many 70mph dual carriageways.

I do know we have nothing on the scale of the Dutch system but I'm looking for examples where we do the things in a Dutch manner that Highways people always seem to say can't be done.
Dawes Galaxy 1982; Raleigh 3 speed 2007; Brompton M6R 2006
One of the most important days of my life was when I learned to ride a bicycle - Michael Palin
thirdcrank
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Re: Dutch style facilities in the UK

Post by thirdcrank »

OldGreyBeard wrote:....I do know we have nothing on the scale of the Dutch system but I'm looking for examples where we do the things in a Dutch manner that Highways people always seem to say can't be done.


Listen a bit more carefully to their waffling. What they are saying is, "we lack the money, expertise, motivation, inclination, etc. We know that when politicians talk about encouraging cycling they invariably don't mean it and even if they do, most of them are here today, gone tomorrow. We are the experts. You can tell us nothing, and even if you could, we are not listening."

I sometimes think it's a Richard Bucket thing.
OldGreyBeard
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Re: Dutch style facilities in the UK

Post by OldGreyBeard »

thirdcrank wrote:
OldGreyBeard wrote:....I do know we have nothing on the scale of the Dutch system but I'm looking for examples where we do the things in a Dutch manner that Highways people always seem to say can't be done.


Listen a bit more carefully to their waffling. What they are saying is, "we lack the money, expertise, motivation, inclination, etc. We know that when politicians talk about encouraging cycling they invariably don't mean it and even if they do, most of them are here today, gone tomorrow. We are the experts. You can tell us nothing, and even if you could, we are not listening."

I sometimes think it's a Richard Bucket thing.

What I wanted were examples where paths do not give way at minor roads so I could use them as examples in commenting on a large planning application where I live that proposes cycle paths that do give way at every minor road. A real UK example of a cyclepath that doesn't do that, with a streetview link & photo, would be a powerful argument. They may well still say no, but at least they can't claim it can't be done.
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One of the most important days of my life was when I learned to ride a bicycle - Michael Palin
bloods-a-rover
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Re: Dutch style facilities in the UK

Post by bloods-a-rover »

What I wanted were examples where paths do not give way at minor roads so I could use them as examples in commenting on a large planning application where I live that proposes cycle paths that do give way at every minor road. A real UK example of a cyclepath that doesn't do that, with a streetview link & photo, would be a powerful argument. They may well still say no, but at least they can't claim it can't be done.


Fair enough - and good effort.

However the very fact that there is such a dearth of them rather emphasises the point others have been making: if we can't get the design right we should be very wary about chucking all our eggs in the 'build it and they will come mentality'. Build crap and they won't come at all. Encourage, restrain traffic, promote like hell and a perhaps enough will take up cycling that one's hand is strengthened.

In the meantime, good luck with your proposal and I hope you find some good examples. I know that there have been some plans in Cambridge for a cycle path alongside Madingley Road which will have (mostly) full priority over sideroads (http://www.camcycle.org.uk/newsletters/93/article8.html).
snibgo
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Re: Dutch style facilities in the UK

Post by snibgo »

Why not give a Dutch example of what can be done?

The Cambridge Madingley Road facility may eventually be wonderful, but last time I was there (December 2010) it was an ordinary footpath on each side of the road that has become dual-use. It see they are "improving" it to be 1.5 metres wide, for two-way cyclists sharing with prams. Gosh, I'm so excited.
OldGreyBeard
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Re: Dutch style facilities in the UK

Post by OldGreyBeard »

snibgo wrote:Why not give a Dutch example of what can be done?

Because it would be Dutch and therefore could be rejected on those grounds. Its a much stronger argument to show that somethig has been done in the UK.
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hubgearfreak
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Re: Dutch style facilities in the UK

Post by hubgearfreak »

OldGreyBeard wrote: I wanted were examples where paths do not give way at minor roads so I could use them as examples in commenting on a large planning application where I live that proposes cycle paths that do give way at every minor road.


best of luck with that OGB. where is it?

anyhow, there's one that i know of, princess elizabeth way, cheltenham. i saw it 15 years ago and it's been etched in my memory ever since as being so surprisingly good, and so rare. whether it's still complete, i don't know and haven't checked...but maybe you can have a virtual ride down it.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=chelten ... 9,,0,19.84

there's also one in hull somewhere. if you follw the TPT through hull, you'll find it. it maybe just before you join the old railway line to hornsea, in a semi industrial area but my memory is a bit vague. perhaps a PM to young greybeard will get you more?
OldGreyBeard
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Re: Dutch style facilities in the UK

Post by OldGreyBeard »

hubgearfreak wrote:
OldGreyBeard wrote: I wanted were examples where paths do not give way at minor roads so I could use them as examples in commenting on a large planning application where I live that proposes cycle paths that do give way at every minor road.


best of luck with that OGB. where is it?

West Linslade Urban Extension - Leighton Buzzard
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thirdcrank
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Re: Dutch style facilities in the UK

Post by thirdcrank »

OGB

What's your plan now? You are unlikely to convince me and even if you did, it would not take you any nearer your goal. (I only say "me" because there are few others posting.)

You have mentioned an absence of support for your ideas locally. Will you be canvassing to try to change that?

You feel the CTC should either campaign for your ideas or move over. I presume you will go through the procedures to try to get that change of policy such as taking this up with your councillors?

I get the impression that you feel that Sustrans is the organisation that is most likely to do what you want. I don't think there is any formal way you can influence their policy. I see they are appealing for funds to allow them to continue. I'd hesitate to suggest a substantial donation as I think you mentioned having been made redundant, but it sounds as though they could soon be downsizing.
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horizon
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Re: Dutch style facilities in the UK

Post by horizon »

thirdcrank wrote:(I only say "me" because there are few others posting.)



It is still an interesting thread though (mainly because OGB has pushed his ideas to their limits and you have responded). Personally I am not interested in Dutch-style facilities. I happen to like English-style roads and streets and want to cycle on them, not off them, cars or no cars.
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hubgearfreak
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Re: Dutch style facilities in the UK

Post by hubgearfreak »

horizon wrote:I happen to like English-style roads and streets and want to cycle on them, not off them, cars or no cars.


me too. but i'd soner have my children riding on that path in cheltenham, than on some of the other crap you see painted around these parts
OldGreyBeard
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Re: Dutch style facilities in the UK

Post by OldGreyBeard »

thirdcrank wrote:OGB

What's your plan now? You are unlikely to convince me and even if you did, it would not take you any nearer your goal. (I only say "me" because there are few others posting.)

You have mentioned an absence of support for your ideas locally. Will you be canvassing to try to change that?

You feel the CTC should either campaign for your ideas or move over. I presume you will go through the procedures to try to get that change of policy such as taking this up with your councillors?

I get the impression that you feel that Sustrans is the organisation that is most likely to do what you want. I don't think there is any formal way you can influence their policy. I see they are appealing for funds to allow them to continue. I'd hesitate to suggest a substantial donation as I think you mentioned having been made redundant, but it sounds as though they could soon be downsizing.

My plan is what it has always been been which is I want to see many more people cycling in my town. We have had 2 1/2 years of the Cycle Town project which has basically followed the traditional approach of Bikeability training, installing cycle parking, Dr Bike etc etc. It has largley not done much with infrastructure except for some very useful contraflows. Generally people still have to cycle on the roads and the evidence is clear: they won't do it in any significant numbers and they won't let their children do it.

The town is subject to substantial growth (25% in population) which means a lot of houses and without significant development of sustainable transport it is difficult to see how the town will cope. The developers plans nearly always include cycling facilities of one form or another and these usually suffer from the typical problmes of these faciltiies in the UK such as the inevitable giving way at every minor road. This means that they won't deliver the required outcome, will be a waste of money and will just give the anti cycling lobby something to bash cycling with. BUT they would be much better with some design changes and it is this that I am seeking to achieve and it would bolster my arguments if I could use UK examples of what is required. Local Government Councillors locally are pretty supportive of cycling but there has been some opposition based on a view of cyclists as Lycra louts which is so far from the truth its a joke.

It is clear from the CTC forum that many existing cyclsits are largely happy with the status quo. The problem is that potential cyclists are not persuaded that the roads are safe and usable and I don't think that the CTC's policies are likely to increase numbers much. This brings me to my main point which is that the CTC sets itself up as the cylists spokesperson and I don't think it is that representative. The AA and IAM regualrly do ePolls of their members to find out their views. When has the CTC done this? I suspect that many belong to the CTC for the insurance and legal service only. I do think Sustrans is more relevant to utility cycling but , for example, whenever new stats on cycling safety come out its always the CTC who are the cyclists spokesperson trotting out the same old thing that cycling is safe. Well, they could be right but no one believes it apart from dyed in the wool Right to Riders.

The Right to Ride is a distraction, what is needed is are Rideable Routes that can be ridden by the average cyclist and children. This is what I want and I don't care if they are on or off road.
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Edwards
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Re: Dutch style facilities in the UK

Post by Edwards »

OldGreyBeard wrote:The Right to Ride is a distraction, what is needed is are Rideable Routes that can be ridden by the average cyclist and children. This is what I want and I don't care if they are on or off road.


This statement sums up how I feel about he way cycling provision is campaigned for.
This forum seems to be of the mindset that when people give their reason for not cycling. They are then told they are wrong, a whole load of stats are produced to prove some thing. The respondent to the question has no interest in doing what is claimed to be safe. Then cycle campaigners moan about the poor take up in the last 30 years.

The basic statement that most normal people do not want to control the roads on a pedal cycle is ignored. Then people who do not want to ride on the road are told they need training.

Why do they need training to do what they do not want to do or have any intention of doing?

Then as a group we add insult to injury and say that people who do not want to ride on the road are wrong.

OGB I wish you every success but do not hold out much hope. You will be doing battle with the authorities and some experienced cyclists plus a lot of campaigners who could not have been wrong for so many years.

If you do succeed can you bring your expertise to where I live please.
Keith Edwards
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