Cycling UK Forum

pete75 wrote:My statement was merely about the inability to hear traffic. You brought not concentrating into it - which can be caused by many things and I'd guess the most common are daydreaming, worrying about life's problems and such like .

Well, your statement explicitly equated the use of headphones to an inability to hear, and the two are simply not equal. I don't think pointing out logical holes in your argument is me bringing extra things in: you brought it in implicitly

pete75 wrote:Actually the impression I got from a goodly proportion of posts was that people think cycling with an ipod is unsafe because one cannot hear the traffic. And yes anyone who says that is implying that it is unsafe for anyone who can't hear the traffic.

Then I think you have the wrong impression.

A number of posts argue that being able to hear the traffic is safer than using a device which both restricts your ability to hear the traffic and replaces its sound with other sound, and a high proportion of those imply or argue that being able to hear the traffic is likely to be safer than not being able to hear it, or is at least is something which can be used to support a certain approach to riding. So it follows that some people may argue that cycling may, in certain circumstances, be less safe for deaf people than for those who can hear.

But - and this is a big but - leaving Landsurfer aside for a moment, I think not one single post has said that riding a bike with no hearing is unsafe. Even if you argue that using headphones makes you less safe, that is categorically not the same as saying that to do so is unsafe. Defining something as safe or unsafe requires a line to be drawn, whereas saying something is more or less safe is a purely relative thing.

Nor, I think, has anyone said that even if, all other things being equal, non-hearing cycling is less safe, this is not the full story. Those who don't make use of hearing more than likely adapt their riding to suit, and thus to be equally safe through different means.

Personally, part of the reason I don't want to use headphones is the way I want to ride (ie not having to slow down on descents just because the road is potholed), and a change in riding style will negate that.

stewartpratt wrote:

pete75 wrote:My statement was merely about the inability to hear traffic. You brought not concentrating into it - which can be caused by many things and I'd guess the most common are daydreaming, worrying about life's problems and such like .

Well, your statement explicitly equated the use of headphones to an inability to hear, and the two are simply not equal. I don't think pointing out logical holes in your argument is me bringing extra things in: you brought it in implicitly

pete75 wrote:Actually the impression I got from a goodly proportion of posts was that people think cycling with an ipod is unsafe because one cannot hear the traffic. And yes anyone who says that is implying that it is unsafe for anyone who can't hear the traffic.

Then I think you have the wrong impression.

A number of posts argue that being able to hear the traffic is safer than using a device which both restricts your ability to hear the traffic and replaces its sound with other sound, and a high proportion of those imply or argue that being able to hear the traffic is likely to be safer than not being able to hear it, or is at least is something which can be used to support a certain approach to riding. So it follows that some people may argue that cycling may, in certain circumstances, be less safe for deaf people than for those who can hear.

But - and this is a big but - leaving Landsurfer aside for a moment, I think not one single post has said that riding a bike with no hearing is unsafe. Even if you argue that using headphones makes you less safe, that is categorically not the same as saying that to do so is unsafe. Defining something as safe or unsafe requires a line to be drawn, whereas saying something is more or less safe is a purely relative thing.

Nor, I think, has anyone said that even if, all other things being equal, non-hearing cycling is less safe, this is not the full story. Those who don't make use of hearing more than likely adapt their riding to suit, and thus to be equally safe through different means.

Personally, part of the reason I don't want to use headphones is the way I want to ride (ie not having to slow down on descents just because the road is potholed), and a change in riding style will negate that.

Is that because the headphones will fall off or because you are relying on your ears to keep you aware of following traffic as you have no time to look backwards?

Thinking about all the pedestrians who regularly walk onto the road infront of me in town, I dont recall ever having one do so with headphones on. This may be because no-one was wearing headphones in the first place or could it be that those with headphones on, feel the need to look before entering the road?

meic wrote:Is that because the headphones will fall off or because you are relying on your ears to keep you aware of following traffic as you have no time to look backwards?

Depending on what you mean, eithe rthe latter or neither.

It's so I can be sure that if there is any traffic behind me (and I make myself aware of it by looking behind me, not by listening for it) then I can to some degree judge whether it's going to sit patiently behind or have a pop at overtaking.

On the front of the CTC AGM supplement there's a photo of an iPod-using cyclist who's clearly just dropped his ipod in the mud, and doesn't look too happy about it.

I have to admit that I like to have all of my senses, including hearing, available when I cycle. And when there isn't any traffic to listen to, I'd rather listen to the hum of tyres, my kids, and the sounds of the countryside. But I don't think that it is dangerous to cycle while listening to music or wearing headphones; no more than it is to cycle when one's hearing is less than perfect; or wearing a helmet with noisy ventilation holes.

Vorpal wrote: I don't think that it is dangerous to cycle while listening to music or wearing headphones; no more than it is to cycle when one's hearing is less than perfect; or wearing a helmet with noisy ventilation holes.

+1

Although I find that at reasonable speeds that wind noise just from my ears is quite considerable.

downfader wrote:

LANDSURFER74 wrote:When i see "Podestrians" and "cyclepodists", i am reminded of Darwin and his "survival of the fittest" theroy.
Lets give every driver of a motor vehicle a licence to hit us with impunity..... 'sorry officer they had no idea i was there' or ' too busy listening to music to watch where they where going' ... i have had 3 near misses with podestrians and 1 near fatal engagement with a cyclepodist due to their total lack of spatial awareness caused by the "POD".
Wear an ipod on the road and you chose to die.
In the words of Trainspotting. " CHOOSE LIFE".
Leave the designer toy at home and arrive back there alive!!!

I think that is a gross overreaction. Even with the best noise cancelling earbud headphones they will not block out the low frequencies of motortraffic. Traffic such as even the smaller cars will be generating frequencies of around 7-70hz (low rumble of engine and tyre), this will be picked up by the chest cavity, the soft shell of the ear, the jaw and teeth, not to mention passing through the structure of the earbud itself.
.....

I don´t believe this to be true.

DR (Danish National Broadcasting) had one of their reporters stand in a busy Copenhagen crossing with a microphone and a camera on the opposite side of the crossing. Whenever a cyclist equipped with headphones stopped for red light, the reporter walked up to the cyclist´s side, just out of eyesight from the cyclist, and asked the cyclist (in a normal voice): "Can you hear everything going in the traffic, with those headphones on?". In every single case, the cyclist didn´t react, before the reporter tapped him/her on the shoulder. When asked the question again (of course, all the cyclists funnily enough removed the earphones when they became aware of the reporter), the all answered: "Oh yes, of course!".

Yesterday (9. April 2011), a Phillipine au-pair was killed just North of Copenhagen when crossing a road with her bicycle. She was run over by two motorcyclists. She wore headphones. According to eyewitnesses - she seemed to be unaware of the traffic around her.

Like LANDSURFER74 I experience problems with headphones-wearing cyclists on a regular basis.

zerobuttons wrote:Whenever a cyclist equipped with headphones stopped for red light, the reporter walked up to the cyclist´s side, just out of eyesight from the cyclist, and asked the cyclist (in a normal voice): "Can you hear everything going in the traffic, with those headphones on?". In every single case, the cyclist didn´t react, before the reporter tapped him/her on the shoulder. When asked the question again (of course, all the cyclists funnily enough removed the earphones when they became aware of the reporter), the all answered: "Oh yes, of course!".

Did they try the same with cars?

Eye's are infinitely better than ears, that's why we allow deaf people to drive (and cycle) but not blind people.
As a motorcyclist I lose count of the number of times car drivers stray into my lane whilst I'm there because they don't look. Perhaps they're depending on their ears too much?
As a cyclist you can easily rely on your ears too much. In traffic they don't help an awful lot and on quiet roads they can be deceptive, allowing you to hear the tyres of a car half a mile back one minute and the next someone will suddenly appear when you didn't expect them. Combined with the wind roar from that other 'friend' of the "cyclists-don't-help-themselves" brigade - the helmet, I feel ears are vastly overrated as a safety aid and even potentially dangerous!

As an aside, based on my admittedly limited experience I can't help but think that people in cars who have trouble with peds and cyclists, along with cyclists who have trouble with pedestrians aren't simply guilty of not paying attention or making allowance.
But then I'm speaking as someone who when driving believes it good form to leave plenty of space between me and pedestrians even when they're on the pavement - as my driving instructor said, "you can't predict pedestrian behaviour so always give them plenty of space" (and this predated personal stereos by a fair bit).

Still the modern 'motorway' driving mentality currently applied to normal roads means people these days believe themselves to all have 'right-of-way' and woe betide anyone that gets in that way and when they do - well, it was their fault wasn't it? It's not like one should have to make allowances for people not in one's line of sight...

zerobuttons wrote:

downfader wrote:

LANDSURFER74 wrote:When i see "Podestrians" and "cyclepodists", i am reminded of Darwin and his "survival of the fittest" theroy.
Lets give every driver of a motor vehicle a licence to hit us with impunity..... 'sorry officer they had no idea i was there' or ' too busy listening to music to watch where they where going' ... i have had 3 near misses with podestrians and 1 near fatal engagement with a cyclepodist due to their total lack of spatial awareness caused by the "POD".
Wear an ipod on the road and you chose to die.
In the words of Trainspotting. " CHOOSE LIFE".
Leave the designer toy at home and arrive back there alive!!!

I think that is a gross overreaction. Even with the best noise cancelling earbud headphones they will not block out the low frequencies of motortraffic. Traffic such as even the smaller cars will be generating frequencies of around 7-70hz (low rumble of engine and tyre), this will be picked up by the chest cavity, the soft shell of the ear, the jaw and teeth, not to mention passing through the structure of the earbud itself.
.....

I don´t believe this to be true.

DR (Danish National Broadcasting) had one of their reporters stand in a busy Copenhagen crossing with a microphone and a camera on the opposite side of the crossing. Whenever a cyclist equipped with headphones stopped for red light, the reporter walked up to the cyclist´s side, just out of eyesight from the cyclist, and asked the cyclist (in a normal voice): "Can you hear everything going in the traffic, with those headphones on?". In every single case, the cyclist didn´t react, before the reporter tapped him/her on the shoulder. When asked the question again (of course, all the cyclists funnily enough removed the earphones when they became aware of the reporter), the all answered: "Oh yes, of course!".

Yesterday (9. April 2011), a Phillipine au-pair was killed just North of Copenhagen when crossing a road with her bicycle. She was run over by two motorcyclists. She wore headphones. According to eyewitnesses - she seemed to be unaware of the traffic around her.

Like LANDSURFER74 I experience problems with headphones-wearing cyclists on a regular basis.

I stand by what I said by the nature of decibels. Engine noise often dwarves vocal speach by about 60 decibels iirc. The spoken voice is, I think, about 40, and a normal engine about 100. I'm not surprised the cyclist didnt hear. I'm slowly going deaf (its the nature of my job working with loud machinery and constant running water), I'd struggle hearing someone speaking to me in normal traffic.

I agree with Kwackers. When I am cycling my eyes are glued to the road ahead looking at the road surface and traffic. And I do look over my shoulder regularly to check on traffic behind me. At speed the wind noise through your helemt makes it hard to hear things clearly anyway. The only useful thing hearing can tell you is if something is approaching behind. But you can't tell from that alone whether a vehicle is going to pass you safely or not. You can only do that by looking behind or using a mirror.

The last couple of posters here seem to me to be doing the same mistake a lot of motorists do: confusing feeling safe (for the motorists: being inside a steel-and-glass cage, for these posters: being vigilantly aware of anything threating their own safety) with not threatening the safety of others in the traffic.

I know I mentioned that factor only as a third in my previous posting, but actually I consider this at least as important a reason for not wearing headphones in traffic (being at least as traffic-safe for others as you are yourself). I get evidence on a daily basis that headphones prevent cyclists and pedestrians from being aware of other cyclists and pedestrians, and sometimes also of cars.

zerobuttons wrote:The last couple of posters here seem to me to be doing the same mistake a lot of motorists do: confusing feeling safe (for the motorists: being inside a steel-and-glass cage, for these posters: being vigilantly aware of anything threating their own safety) with not threatening the safety of others in the traffic.

I know I mentioned that factor only as a third in my previous posting, but actually I consider this at least as important a reason for not wearing headphones in traffic (being at least as traffic-safe for others as you are yourself). I get evidence on a daily basis that headphones prevent cyclists and pedestrians from being aware of other cyclists and pedestrians, and sometimes also of cars.

Yes but is that an aural overload or a concentration overload? The two are very different.

I dont think we're going to solve it arguing like greeks, it needs studies done.

How come everyone's helmet makes so much noise? Mine doesn't, it doesn't even go over my ears.

alicej wrote:How come everyone's helmet makes so much noise? Mine doesn't, it doesn't even go over my ears.

The fact that they travel at 20mph through air causes alot of turbulence, and a significant amount of noise.

[XAP]Bob wrote:

alicej wrote:How come everyone's helmet makes so much noise? Mine doesn't, it doesn't even go over my ears.

The fact that they travel at 20mph through air causes alot of turbulence, and a significant amount of noise.

Never noticed it. My eyes stream, but the only noise from my helmet is the excess bit of strap knocking on the helmet shell just above my right ear - I must cut it off! I do get up to more than 20mph sometimes. Maybe it's because I'm quite upright?