fptp

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thirdcrank
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Re: fptp

Post by thirdcrank »

I see from my Daily Telegraph, that Cameron is reported as saying "... I will campaign to keep our United Kingdom together with every single fibre that I have." Sounds as though the negotiations are much further advanced than I thought. Could be a done deal already. :lol:

irc wrote: .... Actually Scotland with 9% (or whatever) of the population would inherit 9% of the civil service so the remainder of the UK would be neither better or worse in terms of the number of civil service employess per capita.


I don't think the Civil Service is uniformly spread across the land. Most of the really top people just have to be in London, of course. (So for example, when a large part of the NHS hierarchy was devolved to Leeds - an installed in the temple of profligate spending knpwn locally as the Kremlin - a lot of time and money was spent when the important functionaries in based in Leeds had to travel to London for regular meetings with the very important functionaries.) OTOH, senior people in successive governments have sited job creation projects where they have expected to gain the biggest political advantage. I suppose one of the biggest white elephants must be the National Insurance set-up in Northumberland, which has administered - after a fashion - NI contributions which long ago became nothing more than a supplementary income tax system, on the pretext that working people were building up benefit entitlement when, in reality, they would have got money from a different source if they had never worked.

It's my impression - and nothing more - that Gordo and his New Labour chums distributed this type of largesse around parts of Scotland. As I'm sure I've posted before, my wife, with an occupational pension of under £300 a month, provides work for three separate HMR&C offices there.

It's sad in human terms, but if the government had even half-reasonable IT provision, many of these low-level clerical jobs + their supervisors + the supoervisors' managers would be redundant. And that's before anybody decides whether means testing the old age pension is more expensive than paying everybody a flat rate.
reohn2
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Re: fptp

Post by reohn2 »

philg wrote:
reohn2 wrote:The stupid British public has blown what was the most important election of my lifetime!

Democracy eh? - you give people the vote and look what they go and do with it :shock:


More like give them the vote and they don't do anything with it,given the turnout!
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philg
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Re: fptp

Post by philg »

reohn2 wrote:
philg wrote:
reohn2 wrote:The stupid British public has blown what was the most important election of my lifetime!

Democracy eh? - you give people the vote and look what they go and do with it :shock:


More like give them the vote and they don't do anything with it,given the turnout!

So the AV/PR thing, bit of a waste of time then?
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hubgearfreak
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Re: fptp

Post by hubgearfreak »

philg wrote:Democracy eh? - you give people the vote and look what they go and do with it :shock:


it's fine in theory, but the electorate needs to be informed. with 10 million of them reading the sun and the mail (and then mostly for celebrity gossip) we're doomed :(
reohn2
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Re: fptp

Post by reohn2 »

philg wrote:So the AV/PR thing, bit of a waste of time then?


Phil
If you wish for true democracy first you have to have more than half the electorate voting,if you wish for true democracy, that electorate has to have true choice which is true PR so that a voter feels their vote is worth something.
To achieve that you need to inform that electorate of the value of their vote,its called education,The Labour party were big on it apparently :? .
If the electorate has only two choices and it feels neither is of use it won't vote,IMO our politicians have done a very good job of discrediting themselves to such an extent that the majority of the electorate don't bother turning out.
This is a sorry state of affairs but when you think about it from a politrickians POV this works for them in that if only <40% of the electorate turnout you've less people to convince(I prefere the word hoodwink).
Now if its a guarentee that of the 40% half to three fifths are set in their ways to vote Tory or Labour(the only parties likely to have any real say until the last election), that leaves perhaps as little as 20% and possibly 15% of the 40% turnout which equates to as little 5to10% of the total electorate deciding on the future parliament,that is not democracy in reallity.
It makes for cosy politrickians in boys clubs and networks looking after themselves at our expense.
AV throws a cat among the pigeons and makes the politrickians work to keep their seats on merit not on nods and winks from party big wigs.
Our politrickal system stinks to high heaven,and everyone knows it but it suits those that profit from it and by profit I mean monetary profit ie; politrickians and those who tune they dance to namely their financiers.
The vast majority lose out, the scam has been pulled off by those who stood to loose the most money but those who stood to gain the most decided to watch the telly,oh the electorate is stupid alright of that there can be no doubt.

To answer your question yes it has been a waste of time "pearls before swine" would sum it up swine who've been taught to wallow in cheap ale and sensationally sad TV.

But let me ask you, do you really think people were educated on the why's and wherefores of AV,
or spun a yarn on its none existent complications?
For the truth is that under AV if a voter only wished to vote for one candidate they could,or make it as complicated they liked voting for any amount upto the number on the ballot paper.
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Mick F
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Re: fptp

Post by Mick F »

Nicely put, R2.

There has been two referendums in my lifetime in England - and another in Scotland - and all changed absolutely nothing. I voted in all three.

1975 for getting out of the EEC.
The second one AV/FPTP
The 1979 Scottish one for independence.

Are referendums worth the trouble?
Mick F. Cornwall
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: fptp

Post by [XAP]Bob »

What is the chance that the politicians will do the traditional thing and ignore the.electorate?
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
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philg
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Re: fptp

Post by philg »

reohn2 wrote:If you wish for true democracy first you have to have more than half the electorate voting

Statistically that isn't the case - sampling half a population is not significantly less accurate that a full sample; opinion polls operates quite well on a small fraction of samples.

Now if its a guarentee that of the 40% half to three fifths are set in their ways to vote Tory or Labour(the only parties likely to have any real say until the last election), that leaves perhaps as little as 20% and possibly 15% of the 40% turnout which equates to as little 5to10% of the total electorate deciding on the future parliament,that is not democracy in reallity.

That I do agree with - the electoral sludge of people who have always voted for party X or Y and will always do so regardless is depressing, but not affected by the system of voting. That only 10% of the populace hold the balance of power is the real problem, and any system that amplifies their control is bad IMO - hence the endless coalitions and fudges that some European countries call governance.

To answer your question yes it has been a waste of time "pearls before swine" would sum it up swine who've been taught to wallow in cheap ale and sensationally sad TV.

You don't really want democracy do you? :)

But let me ask you, do you really think people were educated on the why's and wherefores of AV,
or spun a yarn on its none existent complications?

Yes to both, lies equally distributed between the two camps. It's just that they voted no, get over it.
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Mick F
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Re: fptp

Post by Mick F »

philg wrote: It's just that they voted no, get over it.
Yes, we will "get over it", but that doesn't make it any better or stop the issue.

I remember voting to get out of the EEC - nowt happened, we "got over it" but the issue remains as strong as ever.
I remember voting for Scotland to remain in the UK - nowt changed, the Scottish people "got over it", but now look!
I remember voting to AV last Thursday - nowt changed, and we'll "get over it", but you mark my words, this issue isn't dead and will not go away, just like the other two issues.
Mick F. Cornwall
reohn2
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Re: fptp

Post by reohn2 »

philg wrote:Statistically that isn't the case - sampling half a population is not significantly less accurate that a full sample; opinion polls operates quite well on a small fraction of samples.


Who does the sampling?
why is it done?


That I do agree with - the electoral sludge of people who have always voted for party X or Y and will always do so regardless is depressing, but not affected by the system of voting. That only 10% of the populace hold the balance of power is the real problem, and any system that amplifies their control is bad IMO - hence the endless coalitions and fudges that some European countries call governance.

Atleast we almost agree on something.

You don't really want democracy do you? :)

More than you'll ever know!
But let me ask you, do you really think people were educated on the why's and wherefores of AV,
or spun a yarn on its none existent complications?
Yes to both, lies equally distributed between the two camps. It's just that they voted no, get over it.

The day I "get over it" is the day I accept public schoolboy lairs in suits lining their own pockets at my expense!
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thirdcrank
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Re: fptp

Post by thirdcrank »

philg wrote:
reohn2 wrote:If you wish for true democracy first you have to have more than half the electorate voting

Statistically that isn't the case - sampling half a population is not significantly less accurate that a full sample; opinion polls operates quite well on a small fraction of samples. ...


If opinion polls didn't lump everybody who didn't express a positive preference for a candidate into "don't know" I can imagine it would be a better method than real polls, decided by a tiny turnout, because at present, nobody knows what the non-voting majority thinks (except for those who "spoil" their ballot by writing something like "None worthy of my vote" and who are dismissed as nutters by politicians in denial.) If opinion polls included sections such "I wouldn't pee on any of them if they were on fire" and "I think they are all bent" we'd have a much clearer view of popular feeling. Then voteseekers woulddn't be able to confuse antipathy with apathy.

I understand that some of the earliest Greek democracies operated by drawing lots to select from the entire eligible population. It's been going downhill ever since.
Nutsey
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Re: fptp

Post by Nutsey »

Some UK maps of voting behaviour in the AV refendum:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... esults-map
http://www.google.com/fusiontables/Data ... 191142AM2F

Its basically correlated with age and urban-ness. Student towns voted yes. Old people, rich or poor, voted no.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: fptp

Post by [XAP]Bob »

philg wrote:
reohn2 wrote:If you wish for true democracy first you have to have more than half the electorate voting

Statistically that isn't the case - sampling half a population is not significantly less accurate that a full sample; opinion polls operates quite well on a small fraction of samples.


Yes - but they take a position on the type of people who they have asked.

The problem with an election is that the cross section of the population who vote is self selected...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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Re: fptp

Post by Malaconotus »

jan19 wrote: After all, its only the little people who have to walk/cycle/use Public Transport in the city and breath that air in, as opposed to sitting in their air-conditioned metal boxes.


Is that actually true? Does air conditioning filter particulates? I'm sure I've seen elsewhere that car drivers are at least as susceptible as cyclists, if not more so, due to the proximity of intakes to other vehicles exhausts.
irc
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Re: fptp

Post by irc »

[XAP]Bob wrote:The problem with an election is that the cross section of the population who vote is self selected...


I don't see that as a problem. Anyone that can't be bothered to vote can't complain about the result.
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