A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Oldjohnw
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by Oldjohnw »

mattheus wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 10:06am
Oldjohnw wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 9:46am
mattheus wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 9:37am Two words about harsher punishment and deterrence effect:

Drink Driving.
Being caught is still the main deterrent here, not the severity of the sentence.
You can't completely separate them; if the penalty had stayed at 3 points, would the extra enforcement/detection have had the same enormous effect we saw in the UK? Have 3 point penalties for speeding had a measurable effect on speeding offences?
Sorry - I was being a bit blinkered here. I was thinking of imprisonment which was mainly what this thread was covering. I think you are right.
John
thirdcrank
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by thirdcrank »

I think drink-driving illustrates several things including what I was trying to say about a "deliberate - planned" course of action. It's my impression that nowadays people going out for the evening plan round getting a taxi home. However, alcohol is one of the things that reduces inhibitions, so some people can do silly things. Then, so much of this is perception and I suspect there's a growing feeling in some quarters - possibly encouraged by big talk on social media - that the chances of being caught are diminishing.
Oldjohnw
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by Oldjohnw »

In the UK we send people to prison increasingly more often, for more offences and for a longer time than almost anywhere else in the world. This is why we are constantly needed to build more prisons. There is no evidence that either there are more criminals here or that this type of criminal justice works. This would apply to motoring as much as any other offence.
John
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by thirdcrank »

Oldjohnw wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 1:04pm In the UK we send people to prison increasingly more often, for more offences and for a longer time than almost anywhere else in the world. This is why we are constantly needed to build more prisons. There is no evidence that either there are more criminals here or that this type of criminal justice works. This would apply to motoring as much as any other offence.
One of my own theories is that any public demand for harsher punishments is the result of a feeling that the system as a whole isn't somehow "working." If I'm right, it might be part of the reason why so many people are locked up for so long in the US while some countries have much lower per capita prison populations. I don't think it's a coincidence that viewed from my settee, the US has the most complicated court system with layer upon layer of safeguards for the individual which tend to mean that when somebody is convicted they get the hard time.
Bonefishblues
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by Bonefishblues »

Oldjohnw wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 1:04pm In the UK we send people to prison increasingly more often, for more offences and for a longer time than almost anywhere else in the world. This is why we are constantly needed to build more prisons. There is no evidence that either there are more criminals here or that this type of criminal justice works. This would apply to motoring as much as any other offence.
I wrote as much in a dissertation in 1982. IIRC the then prison population was 40K, give or take.
thirdcrank
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by thirdcrank »

Perhaps Oldjohnw or somebody else with the info can give an idea of the number of unconvicted prisoners in the system? Or the typical time spent in custody awaiting trial?
Oldjohnw
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by Oldjohnw »

I am speaking from memory and only of the youth custody estate but there are currently about 1000 youths in prison, about one third of whom are on remand ie have not been sentenced. Of these only about half will be found guilty or receive a custodial sentence.

Of those who do receive a custodial sentence, most - over 60%, if memory serves me right - will be repeat offenders.
John
thirdcrank
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by thirdcrank »

Oldjohnw wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 4:22pm I am speaking from memory and only of the youth custody estate but there are currently about 1000 youths in prison, about one third of whom are on remand ie have not been sentenced. Of these only about half will be found guilty or receive a custodial sentence.

Of those who do receive a custodial sentence, most - over 60%, if memory serves me right - will be repeat offenders.
Thanks.

What I was getting at is an explanation for the big increase in the prison population over the last few decades and AFAIK, a lot of it is explained by increasing delays between being charged and weighed off, rather than longer sentences. Incidentally, the fact that after a long remand in custody some receive non-custodial sentence is because the sentence reflects to some extent the fact that the remand involved custody.

I can think of quite a list of reforms, some organisational, some intended to be enlightened (?) which have had an influence. Once upon a time, it was relatively rare for cases not to be dealt with in the magistrates' court, unless they were only indictable eg murder. This was partly because of the complications of the committal process. Dr Beeching - the railways man - streamlined the process and lo and behold, everybody was electing to go for trial. Remands in custody lengthened and further streamlining has made that worse. Video hearings and reductions in their frequency more so.

The introduction of suspended sentences increased the prison population - proving perhaps that inevitable gaol is not a deterrent for some, except that many may have thought it was huffing and puffing. Short suspended sentences were banned so courts sometimes avoided that with longer sentences.

And some of the public attitudes are formed by those found not guilty but who "did it."
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by Bonefishblues »

http://www.prisonreformtrust.org.uk/Por ... 202019.pdf

P6 for remand info - at the point of publication, use of remand was decreasing, they comment.
Oldjohnw
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by Oldjohnw »

As the PRT report says (post retirement I was a research associate with them for about 3 years) inflated sentences are the main cause of an expanding population plus more petty crimes getting custodial sentences and longer tariffs for life sentences.

The population has increased again over the last two years, which have been abnormal due to delays in getting to court because of Covid.
John
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by thirdcrank »

To pull one little item from that "The majority had committed a non-violent offence."

If it's true that deterrents don't work with unpremeditated behaviour, then the suggestion that custody should be reserved for violence seems odd.

From the POV of views sometimes expressed on here, I suspect there may be some non-violent driving offences in those stats that some would describe as "assaults." I suspect also that people end up in prison when other disposals have not "worked" eg community sentences which have not been completed .

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Re Covid, I understand the delays were increasing before that
cbman65
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by cbman65 »

Oldjohnw wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 1:04pm In the UK we send people to prison increasingly more often, for more offences and for a longer time than almost anywhere else in the world. This is why we are constantly needed to build more prisons. There is no evidence that either there are more criminals here or that this type of criminal justice works. This would apply to motoring as much as any other offence.
I am in agreement that, generally speaking, imprisonment has proved an inefficient approach to reducing crime and that longer sentences make little or no difference to that. However, I am not sure that I agree with the idea that all offences are the same when it comes to that conclusion.

The sentence on conviction is intended to try and achieve three aims. To punish the offender in question, to prevent the offender from re-offending and to encourage others not to offend in the first place.

The relative importance of these aims differs depending on the crime being considered.

For many crimes the issue of deterrence of other people is relatively unimportant. For example neither the risk of being caught nor the severity of any potential sentence are what deters most people from burglary. It is just not something that the majority of the population would ever be tempted to do. It is not in the set of things that they would ever consider doing or ever find themselves in the position of being tempted to do.
For such crimes society is much better served by sentencing that addresses the reoffending of the criminal being sentenced than either of the other two aims of sentencing.

Motoring offences do not fall into that category.
A large proportion of the population drive, and drive regularly. They therefore have the opportunity to commit the crime.
Most motoring offences are those of convenience or distraction. Motorists are therefore frequently going to be tempted to commit the crime.

It therefore seems to me that in the case of crimes where large proportions of the population have the opportunity to offend, the balance between the three aims of sentencing ought to be skewed more towards encouraging others not to offend.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Some interesting points...

A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
thirdcrank
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Re: A place to record lenient sentencing for motorvehicle....

Post by thirdcrank »

One thing I take from that is that as a driving instructor, he should concentrate his attention on the road and traffic conditions when he's driving.
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PS The commentator suggests that the fact of the charge of dangerous driving being reduced to due care at court somehow illustrates the wisdom of the judge. As the driver had the evidential footage recorded by the onboard police system, I think he must have instructed a lawyer who in turn got the CPS to agree to reduce the charge. AFAIK, as dangerous driving carries six months imprisonment max at summary trial, the defendant can elect to go to Crown Court. That can be risky because the max is then two years, but the offer of a guilty plea to a lesser charge tends to be irresistible to the CPS
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