Cycling UK Forum

Oracle
Apology accepted,gracefully

AndyB
Man of the match.Oops sorry, person of the post

Perhaps part of Dianne's post was influenced by a recent TV program on transport (called "are we getting there?" or something like that?)?

In one edition of this program they went to a Manchester bus company and spoke to many of the drivers. Of the group that they sampled, only one could speak English, and he couldn't speak it that well either - although it was better than my Polish!

IIRC the company in question had been banned from working several routes due to accidents. In one case they claimed that the driver hadn't been able to understand the height warning where the road went under a railway bridge and had got his bus wedged under said bridge. In another case a driver had managed to collide with a mother with child, however, they didn't explain how the driver's lack of English contributed to this.

Question is, of course, does one need to be able to read English to drive safely? This assumes that the driver has reached a good enough driving standard to pass a test in their country of origin (but I won't go into how poor many country's driving tests, including the UK's, are). So, speed limit signs they should be OK with assuming they have realised that we use milesph not kmph. Things like giveway signs and lines are, I believe, fairly universal in the EU. The names of place on signs are going to be the same no matter what language you speak. Red traffic lights tend to mean stop (although a few places allow cyclists to pass through reds under some circumstances). In deed, the vast majority of signs tend to be pictorial rather than text - if these are causing problems then we'd be forced to ban Americans, NZers, Aussies, etc too.

And as has been mentioned already - if foriegners are causing us problems then we, as responsible road users should not venture onto foriegn roads unless we are fluent in their languages too. Should this would apply just as much to cyclists as car drivers?

As expected, I stirred up the usual male opposition to common sense.

Although, Dianne, I think that you do any point you are trying to make a great disservice with your dissmissal of other's very valid arguments based soley on their sex. Continually waving the sexism card at any challenge to your views does little for your credibility.

I have to say that this has been one of the most entertaining threads I've seen for ages - but I have to agree with ThomasDylan's comments: "Sometimes people say more about themselves when talking of others than anyone else ever could..."

O/T and Sweeping generalisation time . . . .

When cycling on the french roads it is always a delightful suprise to note the degree of care and respect afforded to cyclists. Imagine the disappointment when a car then scrapes past your elbow. You notice that it has a UK registration plate. . . . .Now if there were some way we could keep the UK drivers off french roads

But before going to far with praise I note that the rate of death and injuries on french roads is still significantly higher than in the UK. Pedestrians in france are nothing but potential roadkill once they step from the kerb. The pedestrian crossings are universally disregarded by the motorists. It is all so curiously inconsistent.

And back to UK, where the rate of death and injuries on the road is one of the lowest in the CE. And yet many of us feel lethally threatened, on a regular basis, when we go out on our bikes.

Alas, it would seem that people only really start to take road safety seriously when they have actually suffered themselves or had a friend or loved one killed or injured.
There must be a better way.

Sorry about the wandering rant . . .. . . . . .

Graham wrote:And back to UK, where the rate of death and injuries on the road is one of the lowest in the CE. And yet many of us feel lethally threatened, on a regular basis, when we go out on our bikes. .

The UK 'road safety' system is to frighten vulnerable users off the roads. (in my opinion.) Once all the nuisances - cyclists and so-called 'peds' are off the roads, casuaties will be hugely reduced. And as many of those people will by then be in cars, traffic may well be at a standstill.

And back to UK, where the rate of death and injuries on the road is one of the lowest in the CE. And yet many of us feel lethally threatened, on a regular basis, when we go out on our bikes.

But how do those figures break down - over all there may be fewer KSIs in the UK, but I would be interested to know how cyclist KSIs compare?

British arrogance has no bounds when it comes to motoring. Most of us has experienced being passed by an unusually considerate motorist and understood when we saw the foreign number plate.
We often cite the North European laws where the car driver is automatically responsible in the event of a collision with a pedestrian or cyclist. This sort of foreign driving attitude is very much needed in the UK.
Some years ago I got a green card to drive my car to Germany. The car was insured for my wife and myself. However I was told that my wife could not drive the car abroad because her licence wasnt good enough.
The problem was she held a German driving licence so I had to drive the car in Germany because I have a UK licence! This is the honest incredible truth. She did of course drive to the ferry in Britain. Without using a mobile, laptop, etc etc.
However there is a valid point about rogue haulage companies and it is easier to be a rogue outside of your country of registration.
Weird how threats of racism and sexism can stiffle factual debate. I can of course be acused of a racist attitude in calling Brtitish arrogant. It is one of those totally unfounded racist attitudes that many foreigners hold.
Also we "all" hold UK driving licences not English licences. My licence is written in Welsh and has a large number of other languages on the front.
If I wish to cycle to Germany should I have to take the ferry to Hamburg because I have never bothered to learn French or Flemish? In those countries I would have to rely on international cameraderie if I had an accident but fortunately most people dont begrudge a bit of friendliness to foreign guests.

Thank you to Si and Graham for your interest in this very serious thread, and I do appreciate the points of view of others.

When I was going EBE to the Sud de France I went to 40 'A' level introductory French classes the previous winter. I needed this knowledge when I got there, because I could not have read the road signs correctly otherwise. Also asking directions - " Au droit, Au gauche ?" --although this was confusing because Droit can mean straight on or right ! When I went into the village PO (Laurens) with my carefully rehearsed request for stamps airmail to England I had some difficulty persuading the woman to serve me, and I realised afterwards she thought I was German ! When I met her in the street the next day she had found out I was staying at the campsite and am English, and was sorry for the way she had treated me.

Some weeks ago, East Anglian Police stated their concern about the number of cars crushed in motorway accidents involving foreign lorry drivers. All we get are statistics, which other posters have fallen into the trap of using, rather than rational common sense ie.looking for a reason.

There is also the very serious point about road charging which will affect the safety of cyclists on country roads. When these foreign drivers of 38 ton lethal vehicles, who cannot read English road signs, find shorter routes via our lanes, with their sat/nav systems, the danger to cyclists will be even greater, and it is this that I am concerned about. As an added point, since I moved onto this Council Estate 7 years ago it has surprised me, that these people dont like anything in writing that they have to read.When I got the library van diverted to save them carrying books from town nobody used it, they are all smoking cigarettes when they are continually told this habit is a cause of ill-health, they only stop when they get lung cancer. But they have all passed their Driving Tests, drive cars and lorries every day. The CTC should be concerned about the number of cyclists injured and killed and the reasons why, rather than altering the Constitution ! (And please stop being nasty to me on this issue.)

Diane Bulley wrote: As an added point, since I moved onto this Council Estate 7 years ago it has surprised me, that these people dont like anything in writing that they have to read.When I got the library van diverted to save them carrying books from town nobody used it, they are all smoking cigarettes when they are continually told this habit is a cause of ill-health, they only stop when they get lung cancer. But they have all passed their Driving Tests, drive cars and lorries every day. The CTC should be concerned about the number of cyclists injured and killed and the reasons why, rather than altering the Constitution ! (And please stop being nasty to me on this issue.)

Sometimes people say more about themselves when talking of others than anyone else ever could...

Diane Bulley wrote: Also asking directions - " Au droit, Au gauche ?" --although this was confusing because Droit can mean straight on or right !

A small point that goes to show that Johny Foreigner isn't so different from us as in 'Keep right on to the end of the road' (although it wasn't an Englishman who popularised that song, I suppose.)

You also said And please stop being nasty to me on this issue.

I really do think that this takes the biscuit. You lash out with your prejudices but expect nobody to disagree. The alternative is that we take a patronising approach. "Isn't she wonderful? Don't know how she does it! And at her age! Does she take sugar?"

I assure you that I have no intention of being nasty to you and I hope that that goes for others. I suggest that the fact that people take the time and trouble to engage your comments and answer them is not nastiness, but a form of respect that you do not appreciate. Perhaps you would prefer it if we all just ignored what you write?

Dianne Bully wrote:-(And please stop being nasty to me on this issue.)

What goes around comes around Dianne.

As an extension to this how about private hand held speed monitoring devices. These would need to be calibrated every week and any citizen can obtain a licence to use them; some training would be needed! I am sure that they would be welcomed in areas around schools and other places where the heavy right foot causes problems. There would be no requirement for signage warning of the presence of these mobile units. As these units would have camers built in they could also be used to record the mobile phone brigade. Yet another form of low life.

Thank you Mike, nice to get another intelligent reply.

The dead cannot ask questions, but the living can do it for them.

I have been thinking about this problem whilst working on my allotment this a.m. More research needs to be done to ascertain the real cause of every accident involving a cyclist, and as CTC has limited funds and staff costs, I would be willing to serve on an Enquiry Committee to start this process. I have 4 years experience of CTC Committee work, and would undertake the extensive clerical work that would be needed, and travel costs to London. The Committee venue, lunch, printing and postage would have to be borne by CTC , but members would have a long term benefit from this work. I havent forgotten Edie Atkins, who was run down by a motorist whilst pushing her bike across the road, it was terrible. I would do this work just for her memory, she was a lovely person to know.

Some years ago I raised objections to the press phraseology " The cyclist who was in collision with the car " when no one knew if the car hit the cyclist - having had cars swerve in front of me and turn into the next side road many times. It was an effort that came to nothing. Reporters just do not care about the fundamental causes of injury and death, just write their stories, and forget about it.

What I would like is for Mike Sutton, Si and Graham to join this Committee, obviously with CTC Management approval, and start a process that the police dont seem interested in doing. The results could go to National Council, and if approved, onward to the Dept of Transport.
Could you reply to this idea by private message please? Many thanks.

Diane Bulley wrote:Some years ago I raised objections to the press phraseology " The cyclist who was in collision with the car "

I speak as someone who has had the job on many occasions of wording police press releases or appeals for witnesses in all sorts of cases.

The form of words you object to is widely - and I thought until now - universally accepted as being neutral. In the immediate aftermath of an accident, anyone preparing such a statement must have no preconceptions - for the quarter century since the fiasco of the Yorkshire Ripper investigations, the phrase has been 'keeping an open mind' - and they must also be careful not to influence potential witnesses.

I think it would be normal for the cyclist in most cases to be mentioned first as they would most often be the casualty.

The alternative to 'A was in collision with B' is likely to ascribe blame in an unacceptable way. More specifically, since in many collisions involving cyclists the only initial explanation comes from the driver, you could end up with 'It is believed the cyclist was wobbling all over the road.' (I regret to say that I have had to reject a couple of drafts along those lines.)

Finally, I think it is fair to say that when the press are reporting the reselts of a prosecution, when the facts are generally clearer, they do not mince their words.
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And as an afterthought, I remember a few years ago, the RTTC as it used to be got very hot under the collar when newspapers reported that time trialists rode into the back of parked cars, rather than using the 'was in a collision' formula.

Dianne
So that things are absolutley clear and there can be no mistaking why you got so much grief over this thread.

That whilst some of us agree with some of your points ie trying to reduce road deaths,injuries,accidents.
People are not willing to put up with you making racist comments or keep refering to peoples lack of education.

This does your case no good and renders your undoubtable concern for road safety useless, because people won't listen to someone with racist views or makes themselves out to be superior to others.

Whether thats your intention or not that is how it comes across.

Please don't take this as a personal attack its not,just something which needs pointing out.

PS If the police will not do anything about these issues it is because they, in their eyes have more important things to do, the reason for this is that the police are undermanned,the country needs flooding with police officers with a zero tolerence approach to crime,this costs money but the public keep voting in the party that offers low taxes, so one can only deduce that the public are only interested money and not stadards.

Until the British mindset changes we are stuck with the present situation.