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Re: The madness of headphones
Posted: 30 Sep 2011, 10:12am
by Guy951
TomTurner wrote:...When you are in a car you can't hear other vehicles around you and you are allowed to have music as loud as a rock concert playing away.?
Highway Code wrote:148
Safe driving and riding needs concentration.
Avoid distractions when driving or riding such as
loud music (this may mask other sounds)
trying to read maps
inserting a cassette or CD or tuning a radio
arguing with your passengers or other road users
eating and drinking
smoking
Re: The madness of headphones
Posted: 30 Sep 2011, 10:16am
by stewartpratt
You're still allowed to have it loud. It just advises that you shouldn't.
Oddly it doesn't advise against being deaf
Re: The madness of headphones
Posted: 30 Sep 2011, 1:11pm
by Hector's House
Guy951 wrote:ChrisButch wrote:Hector's House wrote:Alot of the discussion has been around hearing. Chances are, I won't hear a car when I'm headphone free.
I suspect an urban/rural divide in the differences of opinion on this question. In towns there's so much ambient noise anyway that adding to the aural confusion won't make that much difference to the overall balance of hazards. On rural lanes, however, being able not only to hear an approaching vehicle (especially one approaching from behind), but also being able to interpret the significance of subtle differences in the engine note, and to react accordingly, are of fundamental importance to safety on the bike.
Spot-on, Sir.
I definately agree with what you're saying - you've hit the nail on the head.
I know I didn't explain why I said what I did, and left it open for discussion, but I feel I should say... I was talking from a personal point of view. I agree that the subtle changes of difference in engine noises are useful. And they say one of the first points of safety is making eye contact - you hear a vehicle behind you, so you turn your head to say "i see you, matey, so don't be trying to do anything funny".
But I've been in the countryside headphone free multiple times, and multiple times have not been able to hear a car in the first place. Whether that's because of my speed, and therefore wind in my ears, or quiet engines, or both, I don't know. But either way, partly because of that I've become very accostomed to looking behind me every minute or so, even if I don't hear an engine noise, just to see what's there. So I reiterate that some quiet fiddle music for me can do no harm. And infact, if it helps me to keep alert, it can only be good.
Re: The madness of headphones
Posted: 30 Sep 2011, 4:06pm
by meic
Guy951 wrote:ChrisButch wrote:Hector's House wrote:Alot of the discussion has been around hearing. Chances are, I won't hear a car when I'm headphone free.
I suspect an urban/rural divide in the differences of opinion on this question. In towns there's so much ambient noise anyway that adding to the aural confusion won't make that much difference to the overall balance of hazards. On rural lanes, however, being able not only to hear an approaching vehicle (especially one approaching from behind), but also being able to interpret the significance of subtle differences in the engine note, and to react accordingly, are of fundamental importance to safety on the bike.
Spot-on, Sir.
Ah but as a rural rider, I can point out that you can have your walkman on quite a low volume and still hear it well enough. Where as in town such a volume would be drowned out by the traffic.
When I ride with my walkman on, I can often still hear vehicles from a mile away if the wind noise hasnt drowned them out.
Re: The madness of headphones
Posted: 30 Sep 2011, 10:13pm
by Big T
ChrisButch wrote:Hector's House wrote:Alot of the discussion has been around hearing. Chances are, I won't hear a car when I'm headphone free.
I suspect an urban/rural divide in the differences of opinion on this question. In towns there's so much ambient noise anyway that adding to the aural confusion won't make that much difference to the overall balance of hazards. On rural lanes, however, being able not only to hear an approaching vehicle (especially one approaching from behind), but also being able to interpret the significance of subtle differences in the engine note, and to react accordingly, are of fundamental importance to safety on the bike.
And what do you do with this information? You can't tell whether that accelerating car behind you is heading straight for you, or will pass 2 metres to your right. If you react to every car that approaches at speed from the rear, then you must spend a lot of time diving for the hedge, or your head must be swivelling around more than the girl in the Exorcist.
Re: The madness of headphones
Posted: 30 Sep 2011, 10:32pm
by MikewsMITH2
A girl at work used to cycle very slowly to work wearing headphones. I was concerned for her safety and mentioned it to her. A week later she was mugged on a quiet cycle path. The criminal caught up with her on foot pulled her off her bike and robbed her. Without the headphones she might have heard him running after her and accelerated away. Without the benefit of hearing our awareness is impaired.
Re: The madness of headphones
Posted: 30 Sep 2011, 11:38pm
by LANDSURFER74
'Podestrians' and 'Cyclepodestrians' are never the victin in any accident...their volunteers!!!
No sympathy ... had too many close calls with people that think spatial awarness is someone elses responsibility...
No help to the grieving families though..
NO PHONES, NO SATNAVS, NO IPODS .....!!!
It's a Darwin moment!!!
Re: The madness of headphones
Posted: 1 Oct 2011, 9:01am
by ChrisButch
Big T wrote:ChrisButch wrote:Hector's House wrote:Alot of the discussion has been around hearing. Chances are, I won't hear a car when I'm headphone free.
I suspect an urban/rural divide in the differences of opinion on this question. In towns there's so much ambient noise anyway that adding to the aural confusion won't make that much difference to the overall balance of hazards. On rural lanes, however, being able not only to hear an approaching vehicle (especially one approaching from behind), but also being able to interpret the significance of subtle differences in the engine note, and to react accordingly, are of fundamental importance to safety on the bike.
And what do you do with this information? You can't tell whether that accelerating car behind you is heading straight for you, or will pass 2 metres to your right. If you react to every car that approaches at speed from the rear, then you must spend a lot of time diving for the hedge, or your head must be swivelling around more than the girl in the Exorcist.
I could answer that question at length, but I'll content myself with three points. Firstly, in most of the lanes in this area there's rarely as much as two metres clearance to the right anyway. Secondly, the engine note allows me to predict (with, I would guess, about 80% accuracy) to which of the following categories the driver belongs: an aggressive tailgater who will hang on your back wheel revving and braking until you make way; a dreamer wo will cruise past regardless without changing speed or deviating from a line, forcing a way through as if you didn't exist; a ditherer who is utterly nonplussed by the appearance of a cyclist on a narrow lane and who has no idea how to respond, and who may eventually make a sudden dash at an inappropriate moment; an over-cautious driver who hangs a long way back at a crawl even when there are opportunities to pass safely; or somebody who gets it all right (of whom, I'm happy to say, there are plenty). Thirdly, on winding lanes a car is usually heard some time before it's seen, and that gives you a vauable advantage in awareness over the driver, who is entirely reliant on visual information.
Re: The madness of headphones
Posted: 1 Oct 2011, 9:10am
by meic
I agree with that and I have absolutely no problem with doing all that whilst listening to music on my walkman at the same time.
Re: The madness of headphones
Posted: 1 Oct 2011, 9:42am
by mark a.
LANDSURFER74 wrote:NO PHONES, NO SATNAVS, NO IPODS .....!!!
YEAH! NO OLD PEOPLE, NO DEAF PEOPLE, NO DISABLED PEOPLE...!!!!
Re: The madness of headphones
Posted: 1 Oct 2011, 10:07am
by yakdiver
mark a. wrote:LANDSURFER74 wrote:NO PHONES, NO SATNAVS, NO IPODS .....!!!
YEAH! NO OLD PEOPLE, NO DEAF PEOPLE, NO DISABLED PEOPLE...!!!!
I'm all three of those - do you think I should pack up living
Re: The madness of headphones
Posted: 1 Oct 2011, 10:15am
by meic
I am pretty sure that Mark was printing that in despair at Landsurfer's superficial comments, trying to mirror their ridiculous nature. I imagine the he was being very sarcastic.
However following what has been printed above about how suicidal it is to cycle with headphones on, I have to ask how, as a deaf cyclist, you dont get wiped off the face of the earth every week.
Re: The madness of headphones
Posted: 1 Oct 2011, 1:29pm
by yakdiver
A rear mirror makes up for the lack of hearing, if set up right you only have to move your eyes, I think I look at my mirror more times than when in the car.
Re: The madness of headphones
Posted: 1 Oct 2011, 1:43pm
by Cunobelin
LANDSURFER74 wrote:'Podestrians' and 'Cyclepodestrians' are never the victin in any accident...their volunteers!!!
No sympathy ... had too many close calls with people that think spatial awarness is someone elses responsibility...
No help to the grieving families though..
NO PHONES, NO SATNAVS, NO IPODS .....!!!
It's a Darwin moment!!!
Will this also apply to cars as well?
Re: The madness of headphones
Posted: 1 Oct 2011, 4:49pm
by byegad
mark a. wrote:I personally don't like to wear headphones while cycling. I have done a couple of times when I'm just popping somewhere and the roads are quiet, but my headphones are quite good at noise isolation so it's very disconcerting.
Most iPod headphones don't isolate the noise that well. As long as the rider doesn't turn the music up to compensate (which is a common problem, and a serious worry about early hearing damage) it shouldn't be a massive problem.
Also, I couldn't bring myself to ban deaf or hard-of-hearing people from cycling. If I'm ok with them cycling (and as long as they take reasonable care) then I am also ok with people wearing headphones.
My hearing is failing. I'm losing the top frequencies and have bad, really bad, tinnitus in my right ear. I can still hear traffic approaching from behind, but look to the day I won't be able to. As I use mirrors on my recumbents I find myself monitoring them more and more closely as my hearing goes. I use headphones sometimes when I walk, and in the past, very occasionally, when I rode. I never had them turned up too loud and could hear traffic better in the days my ears worked with the music on than I can now.
To me it all depends on how loud the user has the music.