Stem and reach

[Ayesha]

I just love all those formulae, and the idea that theres some magic trick an expert can perform and you will be comfortable evermore!
KOPS is "knee over pedal spindle". You sit on the bike, put the pedals horizontal, drop a plumb line from your "front" knee, and it should point at the pedal spindle.
There is a thread here http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=54588&hilit=zoom&start=45 where there are 3 of us doing it different ways, on the kneecap, 15mm behind the kneecap, anywhere you like really!

As I said Colin; Start with KOPS and fine tune until you find your 'ergonomic opimum'. There's no formulae there!

Oh, I'm forgetting, this is the Cyclists' Touring Club forum. Bad efficiency = more cake.


The problem is with fitting a frame/bike is when someone comes into the workshop and says "Build me a frame". Out come the measuring tape and sliderule; and a notepad to jot down the lengths, angles etc.

[mattsccm]

Planet X are worth a look for a variety of stems and bars as are SJSC.
I had a similar issue. The bike I bought and was fitted for in 1983 was proving just to long in the TT over the last couple of years. A shorter stem with a bit more rise and some compact bars brought me back a good 4cm with no noticeable handing changes.

[531colin]

Regarding finding the optimal saddle position, what's the convention for this? .................

It sounds like I need to start again on the set up, starting with saddle position and going from there. Tips on getting this right would be gratefully received.

Ta

Dave.....may I refine your question a bit?

I think you need to know "How do I find a saddle position where I can comfortably ride all day, (every day, when touring) avoiding injuries?"

I think you need the saddle further back for relaxed riding than you do for racing, but then I have never raced.

The nose of my B17 narrow is 60mm (+/- 5mm) behind the BB spindle (5' 10" & 31" trouser) which works for me, but I like to sit behind the pedals. I have to drop a plumb line from just under my kneecap for KOPS to work. Some folk like to sit on top of the pedals. But my saddle has been there so long, I can't remember how I arrived at that position.

[Ayesha]

Regarding finding the optimal saddle position, what's the convention for this? .................

It sounds like I need to start again on the set up, starting with saddle position and going from there. Tips on getting this right would be gratefully received.

Ta

Dave.....may I refine your question a bit?

I think you need to know "How do I find a saddle position where I can comfortably ride all day, (every day, when touring) avoiding injuries?"

I think you need the saddle further back for relaxed riding than you do for racing, but then I have never raced.

The nose of my B17 narrow is 60mm (+/- 5mm) behind the BB spindle (5' 10" & 31" trouser) which works for me, but I like to sit behind the pedals. I have to drop a plumb line from just under my kneecap for KOPS to work. Some folk like to sit on top of the pedals. But my saddle has been there so long, I can't remember how I arrived at that position.

I used to admire Mike Burrows. I even rode a Windcheetah Speedy for a while.

Then, to my dismay, he wrote an article about bike fitting of the Giant 'Compact geometry frame' and suggested that 'reach' is the distance from saddle nose to handlebars if you put your forearm and outstretched fingers between these two places.

Every bike builder knows saddles are of different design and its the HIP BALL JOINTS that are the index point on a saddle. The position of the Hip Ball Joints are positioned with relation to the bottom bracket and pedal spindle ( KOPS ).

How does one set up a bike with a stubby saddle?

There's no way round it. Some mathematical trig' and geom' serve as a "Starting point" to fitting a bike to its rider. Decades of research and experience lead us to a quite close position after 30 minutes or so of measuring and Allen key twisting.

Take a tape to your bike and you'll probably find the position of your Hip Ball Joints is 10 - 11" rear of the bottom bracket. With cranks of 6 3/4", your Hip Ball Joints will be 'behind' the pedals even on a race bike.

[reohn2]

Dave
Following on from what Colin has said,the fore and aft position of the saddle is directly related to thigh length ie; longer thighs further behind the BB the nose of the saddle needs to be(if one thigh is shorter than the other apply KOPS to the longer thigh rather than the shorter one for safety's sake as not as much pressure is put on the knee joint the further back the saddle is).

Saddle height is related to total leg length ie;longer the the leg the higher the saddle and should be measured by placing the heel(in cycling shoes) on a pedal with that pedal at the bottom in line with the seat tube,then repeated on the other side which will prove if one leg is shorter than the other(saddle height should then be set to the shorter(if any) leg or if its a large discrepency a shorter crank on that side maybe better).When the ball of the foot is on the pedal the knee should be slightly bent.

The saddle should be either level or slighlty nose up,if its nose down it throws body weight onto the hands which isn't good for long distances.

The handlebars are then set for comfort, which includes height in relation to saddle height,distance from the nose of the saddle,position of h/bars ie; tops level or slightly dropping away from the rider and the postion of the hoods on the bars,these position(s) are directly related to arm and torso length.
I find it better to get the hoods and drops in the most comfortable position rather than the tops as most of the riding is done in these positions.

Note:- these are approximations,KOPS,(Knee Over Pedal Spindle) is a starting point,its probably worth remembering that 3to5mm either side of the KOPS "ideal" can be right for the individual.

[Ayesha]

Dave
Following on from what Colin has said,the fore and aft position of the saddle is directly related to thigh length ie; longer thighs further behind the BB the nose of the saddle needs to be(if one thigh is shorter than the other apply KOPS to the longer thigh rather than the shorter one for safety's sake as not as much pressure is put on the knee joint the further back the saddle is).

Saddle height is related to total leg length ie;longer the the leg the higher the saddle and should be measured by placing the heel(in cycling shoes) on a pedal with that pedal at the bottom in line with the seat tube,then repeated on the other side which will prove if one leg is shorter than the other(saddle height should then be set to the shorter(if any) leg or if its a large discrepency a shorter crank on that side maybe better).When the ball of the foot is on the pedal the knee should be slightly bent.

The saddle should be either level or slighlty nose up,if its nose down it throws body weight onto the hands which isn't good for long distances.

The handlebars are then set for comfort, which includes height in relation to saddle height,distance from the nose of the saddle,position of h/bars ie; tops level or slightly dropping away from the rider and the postion of the hoods on the bars,these position(s) are directly related to arm and torso length.
I find it better to get the hoods and drops in the most comfortable position rather than the tops as most of the riding is done in these positions.

Note:- these are approximations,KOPS,(Knee Over Pedal Spindle) is a starting point,its probably worth remembering that 3to5mm either side of the KOPS "ideal" can be right for the individual.

Seat fore/aft is INDIRECTLY related to thigh and lower leg dimensions, as these are used to determine Seat Angle of the frame.
Using the correct formulae to find Seat Angle, the seat rails and seat pin can be set to 'mid position' when the bike is assembled. Then the customer sits on and KOPS will be very close. Minor adjustments either way to get the ergonomics perfect.

[reohn2]

Seat fore/aft is INDIRECTLY related to thigh and lower leg dimensions,

No it isn't.The saddle fore and aft position is directly related to the BB(as I said before) which is determined by seat tube angle and determined by KOPS.

I think we're in agreement,forget frame just think position .

[Ayesha]

Seat fore/aft is INDIRECTLY related to thigh and lower leg dimensions,

No it isn't.The saddle fore and aft position is directly related to the BB(as I said before) which is determined by seat tube angle and determined by KOPS.

I think we're in agreement,forget frame just think position .

Cat, skin, ways, many.

[horizon]

The point I was making to hungrydave was that however you measure yourself and whatever method you use to get the position of everything right, the length of the top tube is non-negotiable. The Surly LHT will no doubt suit many people but its specification alone isn't enough. The fact is, not enough buyers know exactly what they want before and during buying a bike - you find this out afterwards.

The correct riding position is the one that works for you - you can juggle this and that until the cows come home - but you have to make sure that the bike you like has the right dimensions. This is confusing enough (though usually OK) for seatpost length/saddle height but very difficult for reach - not only do people have different proportions but have different riding styles as well.

I would have hoped that the OP could have found out about the Surly before buying one but where and how?? Manufacturers don't say, dealers don't know or care.

[hungrydave]

It's a fair point and something I'm getting more attuned to having had a number of 'almost' right bikes in the recent years. All were about the right size but just didn't quite gel - hence why I realised I was more comfortable, and just as quick, doing 90 road miles on my mountain bike as I was doing 40 on my carbon racer. They all felt right on test rides and getting fitted (ish) but theres no substitute for getting a lot of miles under the belt to really know whether it works. I knew from the previous roadbike that a low and long position was not for me and the surly is infinitely better; it's just not quite in old slipper territory yet - having had bikes previously (through chance) that just felt 'right' I know it's attainable and doubt I'm far from it with the current bike...

Based on what a previous poster said, I shouldn't be aiming to be actually on the hoods so I maybe only need to bring the bars back by 1-2cm. The plan this week is to nail the saddle position and go from there.

[531colin]

...............Based on what a previous poster said, I shouldn't be aiming to be actually on the hoods .........

I didn't understand that at the time. I think you need to be comfortable on the hoods, for riding in traffic or in groups of cyclists, for bendy, steep, unfamiliar roads, for tracks, all sorts of situations where you need immediate access to the brakes. If you are comfortable on the hoods, you can use the drops for headwinds. If the hoods are a stretch, the drops are a no-go zone.
Having said all that, a lot of the time my hands just rest on the hood and on the bar behind the hood....http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=53539&hilit=hand&start=15

[reohn2]

...............Based on what a previous poster said, I shouldn't be aiming to be actually on the hoods .........

I didn't understand that at the time. I think you need to be comfortable on the hoods, for riding in traffic or in groups of cyclists, for bendy, steep, unfamiliar roads, for tracks, all sorts of situations where you need immediate access to the brakes. If you are comfortable on the hoods, you can use the drops for headwinds. If the hoods are a stretch, the drops are a no-go zone.
Having said all that, a lot of the time my hands just rest on the hood and on the bar behind the hood....http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=53539&hilit=hand&start=15

I'd agree,you should be comfortable on all the positions afforded by dropbars,especially the drops, where you have best control of the bike in tricky situations, which is why compact drops are so much better for all day comfort and more so for the less flexible of riders.

[bigjim]

In that picture you look to be stretched out as I though one needed to have a slight bend at the elbow whilst on the hoods. I have the same problem as the OP. 6'2" with long legs. I have shortened and raised the stem on all my bikes, tilted the bars upwards and on one bike moved the brake levers further up the bars. I have found the advice given to measure correct length as the elbow against the saddle and fingers just touching the bars to be correct for me. Evidently if you have a long thigh you will find it more comfortable to have the saddle positioned slightly further back than the normal knee over centre crank position, but this puts you further away from the bars.

[hungrydave]

Well, tracked down a 35degree 90mm silver stem with 26mm clamo from JensonUSA and ordered it. According to KOPS my saddle is in a good place so this should hopefully nail it.

[Ayesha]

I 'Phoned a friend'.

Once you get the saddle height and fore/aft correct, the 'Reach' and 'Handlebar height' should get your Lumbar Vertebrae at 45 Degs. With slightly bent arms and holding on the hoods, the angle between Thoacic Vertebrae and upper arm should be 90 Degs. +/- 2 degrees and you're there.

The other metric is the 'obsured front spindle' when you glance down. This should happen on the hoods and the drops.

Another thing to consider is... Try riding in the 'Tuck' position for a few miles. At least fifteen minutes. When you sit up and hold on the hoods, it'll feel like you've activated your air brakes
When a bike is fitted with racing hook handlebars, it is necessary to be comfortable riding in the tuck. At sometime, you will be riding into a howling gale. You will get more efficient headway if you can reduce your X-section by going in the tuck.

If it is a case that you cannot get into a comfortable riding position in the tuck, that frame should be advertised in the next edition of your local rag.