irritating.

[reohn2]

....................Motor vehicles do too but everyone of us depend on them just to live.................

Oh no we don't r2. I very rarely disagree with anything you say, but I do on this one. It's a falacy. I'm retired now, but I've lived a full professional life and raised two daughters who've been through University, got their degrees and are now in decent jobs. I'm not saying this to be admired - it's just everyday life for those of us with a brain - but I've never had a car, or a driving license.

All I've done is to decide to do without the damned things.

Anyone can do it. Those who don't want to will make their own choice and live by it, but never, ever elevate the motor car to the level of necessity.

I don't like to say this John but you're kidding yourself if you think you're living without a motorvehicle,you may not be using one first hand but you are dependent on them just to live in the modern world.
The three emergency services,groceries,utility services,bus services,the man who repairs your roof,fits your carpet,the plumber,etc,etc,the list is endless.
We are all dependent on them,whether we like it or not,our exsistence would be for the worse without them.
They are a mixed blessing,but their good far outweighs their bad.
Some of their drivers,ah,well,thats another matter............

[Edwards]

but never, ever elevate the motor car to the level of necessity.

Without motor vehicles delivering food and other essentials we would all have serious problems. Also if you are fortunate to be fit enough not to need a motor car but some people are not that lucky. Without a car they would be in a virtual prison trapped in their wheel chairs.

Some days I am trapped in the house as I am unable to cycle. It is not very pleasant to have your mobility removed even if it is only driving a car.

Many years ago I gave somebody a lift in my car, when I went to light a cigarette he asked me not to smoke in the car.
So I did the decent thing and stopped the car before suggesting he got out.

I can understand non smokers not liking the smell but some do seem to take their passion to far. Especially when I am outside well away from them and they come to join me then complain.

[JohnW]

r2 and Edwards -

Let me clarify - I said motor car, by which I mean the private motor car. I accept your other points, and what I say doesn't invalidate them.

As for some people without cars becoming prisoners in their own homes, I accept that but how many of them wouldn't be so disabled if they'd kept exercising and using the whole of their bodies instead of just walking from office desk to car to chair in front of the tele, to car.........?

And, do take into account the number of, particularly elderly people, who are prisoners because public transport has demised because so many one-time users of public transport now use cars, and the public transport isn't viable.

And do take into account the number of disabled people who are independant wheelchair users but who are prisoners in their own homes because the footpath isn't available to them because some pillock has parked his car on it.

Like I said, we make our choice, but don't be deluded into thinking that the private motor car is essential.

[AlbionLass]

Neither myself or my partner have ever learned to drive or owned a car (we're 39 and 43), we have an almost 15 year old son. I wouldn't pretend that motor vehicles don't play a huge part in how we live though, I use buses, I have to get a taxi back from the supermarket once a week (I'd love a trailer for one of the bikes for this purpose), sometimes I have to use other taxis or lifts from relatives with cars. That's before I even consider all the vehicles used in transporting the things I buy and use daily and all the vehicles used by people that serve me in shops, my son's teachers...it's endless.
The fact the we don't have a personal car isn't very significant in the scheme of things as much as we'd like it to be.

[reohn2]

r2

Let me clarify - I said motor car, by which I mean the private motor car.

I'll accept that.

As for some people without cars becoming prisoners in their own homes, I accept that but how many of them wouldn't be so disabled if they'd kept exercising and using the whole of their bodies instead of just walking from office desk to car to chair in front of the tele, to car.........?

Agreed,the nation would be healthier for it if more people exercised and not just in gym's full of psudo exercise impliments either.

And, do take into account the number of, particularly elderly people, who are prisoners because public transport has demised because so many one-time users of public transport now use cars, and the public transport isn't viable.

IMO our problem with public transport is (thanks to Maggie Thatcher) that unless it makes huge profits for its owners it isn't worth the effort.

And do take into account the number of disabled people who are independant wheelchair users but who are prisoners in their own homes because the footpath isn't available to them because some pillock has parked his car on it.

That is because we in the UK don't implement the rule of law

Like I said, we make our choice, but don't be deluded into thinking that the private motor car is essential.

I'm not John,its a personal choice.

[Mick F]

I think we have to define the word "essential".

It is essential to have a private car in places where there is no public transport and where the geography conspires to stop the average person using a bicycle or Shank's Pony.

Maybe we should have donkey carts, or better still, have a full compliment of public transport for all.

[AlbionLass]

I think something like a standard Shetland or Welsh Section A pony would be more practical for the average person than a donkey, they cope better with the British climate.

[Edwards]

I think we have to define the word "essential".

Sister in law with MS and 50% lung function needs to use electric wheel chair.
Father in Law with Parkinson's and can only walk a few dozen meters.
Me a lot of the time I can not even walk past the end of our drive let alone use my bike.

Exercise has nothing to do with illness or disability. I am sure some some must remember people who had Polio, is it claimed that exercise can stop a person getting such a horrid disease and a long list of others including some cancers.

One thought if you use other peoples private car are you really free from the car as hard as you might try to be?
I think I read on here about somebody who claimed to be car free and it then transpired his wife had a car. So it depends on what you class as car free

[irc]

IMO our problem with public transport is (thanks to Maggie Thatcher) that unless it makes huge profits for its owners it isn't worth the effort.

The rail subsidy in the UK is £4 for every £5 of fares. In Scotland it is £15 for every £5 of fare revenue. So how big do you think the subsidy should be then?

http://www.scotsman.com/news/letters/bo ... _1_1971819

There is a movement to build a new Glasgow Airport rail link at huge cost where the projected passenger levels would be 18 per train and the fare revenue would not cover operating costs, never mind capital/depreciation.

AS far as rail travel goes all governments in recent years have subsidised in hugely.

[reohn2]

IMO our problem with public transport is (thanks to Maggie Thatcher) that unless it makes huge profits for its owners it isn't worth the effort.

The rail subsidy in the UK is £4 for every £5 of fares. In Scotland it is £15 for every £5 of fare revenue. So how big do you think the subsidy should be then?

http://www.scotsman.com/news/letters/bo ... _1_1971819

There is a movement to build a new Glasgow Airport rail link at huge cost where the projected passenger levels would be 18 per train and the fare revenue would not cover operating costs, never mind capital/depreciation.

AS far as rail travel goes all governments in recent years have subsidised in hugely.

I was thinking buses,but I take you're point.
So looks like we keep on building roads until we have enough of them or perhaps you have another suggestion.
The cheapest way to move people around has got to be more people in one vehicle ie; buses or trains,so long as theres more profit being made out of private motor cars public tranport will always be expensive, the trick has got to be restricted access for motorcars into towns and cities,but that restricts so called "freedom" even though the whole of society suffers.
Only when society realises its restricting its own freedom by not restricting car use in cities and towns will it realise wisdom,as it is profits are realised by some whilst pollution and frustration is realised by the majority.

PS,I think we've been through this one before.

[ronyrash]

its simple.if you dont have a cor you are cor free.well done cor frees you are doing everyone a big favour.and for sure your rewards will come.
no one wants water till the well runs dry.

[hubgearfreak]

r2 and Edwards -

Like I said, we make our choice, but don't be deluded into thinking that the private motor car is essential.

we shouldn't forget the town planners of recent decades who've promoted out of town retailing, cinemas etc. and the death of small bakers, greengrocers & etc.

if cars are essential for some, then for many of those some it's because our cities have been designed to rely upon them

[JohnW]

................................we shouldn't forget the town planners of recent decades who've promoted out of town retailing, cinemas etc. and the death of small bakers, greengrocers & etc.

if cars are essential for some, then for many of those some it's because our cities have been designed to rely upon them................

Absolutely hubbers - they don't understand humanity. Of course now, twenty years or more on from their ignorance and stupidity, they're crying in their beer because town centres are dying.

In my profession, I had to work/liaise with and generally kow-tow to planners. In principle they could be of great benefiet, but in fact they're...............x*X@/!!!"...............you get the idea - perhaps inept is the nearest single word.

[JohnW]

................................we shouldn't forget the town planners of recent decades who've promoted out of town retailing, cinemas etc. and the death of small bakers, greengrocers & etc.

if cars are essential for some, then for many of those some it's because our cities have been designed to rely upon them................

Absolutely hubbers - they don't understand either reality, practicality or the lessons of history. Of course now, twenty years or more on from their ignorance and stupidity, they're crying in their beer because town centres are dying.

In my profession, I had to work/liaise with and generally kow-tow to planners. In principle they could be of great benefiet, but in fact they're...............x*X@/!!!"...............you get the idea - perhaps inept is the nearest single word.

[JohnW]

.......................thanks to Maggie Thatcher...................

r2 - I thought Si had asked us not to use bad language on this forum.