Electrical derailleurs

[pliptrot]

I'm not sure if there is much in the way of electronics in this latest fad, electrical gear shifting, but I'm interested in what people think of it - stupid, silly fashion or a step ahead? To my mind it's using a microwave oven to shield the campfire from strong winds, but it seems to be catching the attention of those who end up driving the market. Is it worth it?

[byegad]

Unless you are worried about the weight of changer and cable inner and outer I feel it's a solution looking for a problem.

[yakdiver]

A long time ago some people moaned about the remote control for a TV set ….....

[mattsccm]

I see issues with very long term reliability. Will they still be working when 15 years old? The mk 2 or 3 ones maybe. Cost is an issue especially when replacing bits (if possible) or after accident damage.
However we said the same about remotes as mentioned, a lack of points in your cars ignition, central locking, mobile phones and computers.
I do see that if all goes well less maintainence in the same way as we don't clean the points on our cars now. It does give room for adding hydraulic disc to drop levers. Again many see no need but that would suit my uses of my bikes.
It might well stop all those threads about "my gear change is poor" but will bring about a refreshing change along the lines of "my gear change is poor"....

[reohn2]

Tripe for anyone who isn't racing and given the stuff for free.the cost is stupidly expensive too.
As Bygad says "a solution looking for a problem" which doesn't exsist.

[tatanab]

TV remote controls, car ignitions etc all work in nice clean environments. Clean in the mucky, gritty, greasy sense not the electrical sense. Cycle gear mechanisms get covered in muck even though we enthusiasts will keep things cleaner than Joe Public. I'd be bothered about having to match gear components exactly to allow the electrical changer to work when parts are not new and less than sparkling clean. With a couple of indexed set ups I have a change between a particular pair of sprockets that is less than precise (all others are fine and I admit I do not match manufacturers for all parts of my gear systems). I can compensate for this by slightly overshifting the lever for that change. How would an electrical changer cope with that? Plus, there would of course be a battery to carry about at each changer which will not have the life of a battery in a cycle computer because the current drain will be much higher during a shift. So for the Tour de France I am sure they will be fine, but for general use I think not.

[Smut Pedaller]

Although I'm generally open minded about things, particularly innovation, but I'm a bit cynical about electronic shifting for anything other than racing. It's been tried a few times in the past, as well as pneumatic shifting (Shimano Airlines) and never really took off, although the systems in the past had never really worked that well.

The difference between a TV remote and a bicycle, is that the bicycle has been around for 100 odd years and overall the basic design hasn't really changed very much, nor has the way we use them - the key strength that has always shone through about the bicycle is its simplicity. I can see the advantages on a top end racing bike, but for everything else the simplicity of a battery free cable shifted bike wins. You could power it by dynamo, but then at that point you might as well use a hub gear which avoids the problems associated with derailleur gearing that electronic shifting is solving in the first place; a dog chasing its own tail.

[[XAP]Bob]

I can see a couple of advantages...
- The ability to have multiple gear changers (so a button on the hoods, drops, wherever)
- Cleaner lines on the vehicle (stop sniggering at the back please)
- Possibly less adjustment needed

Of course it would be better if all bikes were (internally) wired for dynamo power for the electronics

I recently snapped a gear cable having misaligned it on refitting (at least I can't think what else would have bent the outer, jamming the inner and causing the failure midway through the cable)

The additional complexity does detract somewhat from a rather pure and simple machine - but the same could be said for dérailleurs themselves.
The power source is my main concern - although it's likely to be stepper controlled and therefore would just become a single speed on power failure.

[[XAP]Bob]

Although I'm generally open minded about things, particularly innovation, but I'm a bit cynical about electronic shifting for anything other than racing. It's been tried a few times in the past, as well as pneumatic shifting (Shimano Airlines) and never really took off, although the systems in the past had never really worked that well.

The difference between a TV remote and a bicycle, is that the bicycle has been around for 100 odd years and overall the basic design hasn't really changed very much, nor has the way we use them - the key strength that has always shone through about the bicycle is its simplicity. I can see the advantages on a top end racing bike, but for everything else the simplicity of a battery free cable shifted bike wins. You could power it by dynamo, but then at that point you might as well use a hub gear which avoids the problems associated with derailleur gearing that electronic shifting is solving in the first place; a dog chasing its own tail.

One of the main reasons that the design hasn't changed is because the UCI didn't let it.

The diamond frame bike is not the most efficient or comfortable method of designing a bike, but the racing bods were embarrassed by an OK racer beating everyone else by using a better machine, and so banned them from racing.

In 1933 Francis Faure, a Frenchman, rode a recumbent 28 miles (45 km) in an hour, a new record. In 1934 the UCI (Union Cyclist International) outlawed recumbent bicycles, and has not relented to this day.

[Barrenfluffit]

On their own I don't see much point. But harness them to a "bike control unit" and all sort of possibilities arise.
You could have automatic shifting to maintain a specific cadence and do away with the complexities of putting gears and brakes in the same place.

[CJ]

Tripe for anyone who isn't racing and given the stuff for free.the cost is stupidly expensive too.
As Bygad says "a solution looking for a problem" which doesn't exsist.

Agreed, except that the problem does exist.

I regularly field enquiries from older cyclists with such bad arthritis in their fingers and thumbs that it hurts to operate any of the available mechanical means of shifting. They need Shimano Di2 as it was originally marketed, in the Nexave line of equipment, which gave reasonably low gears (since they generally also have some arthritis in their knees). But unfortunately not enough people bought that, not even in Holland, where people do spend real money on everyday bikes. In Britain Nexave Di2 wasn't ever so much as imported.

It was the same with indexed gears. Positron and other systems were initially marketed to normal folks in the mid-market, but not enough of them paid the extra. So it was re-introduced at the top level and eventually filtered down to the folks who really benefit from it, but won't pay a penny more for "just a bike".

Electronic shifting will eventually be automatic shifting, that can be set to the individual's preferred style of riding (e.g. leisure, fitness, sport) and then forgotten about.

[reohn2]

Agreed, except that the problem does exist.

I regularly field enquiries from older cyclists with such bad arthritis in their fingers and thumbs that it hurts to operate any of the available mechanical means of shifting. They need Shimano Di2 as it was originally marketed, in the Nexave line of equipment, which gave reasonably low gears (since they generally also have some arthritis in their knees). But unfortunately not enough people bought that, not even in Holland, where people do spend real money on everyday bikes. In Britain Nexave Di2 wasn't ever so much as imported.

It was the same with indexed gears. Positron and other systems were initially marketed to normal folks in the mid-market, but not enough of them paid the extra. So it was re-introduced at the top level and eventually filtered down to the folks who really benefit from it, but won't pay a penny more for "just a bike".

Electronic shifting will eventually be automatic shifting, that can be set to the individual's preferred style of riding (e.g. leisure, fitness, sport) and then forgotten about.

Point taken,as someone who suffers from arthritis,particularly in my hands,so can symathise with people who's condition is so bad as to affect them in that way.I hadn't thought "down the line" with such problems,so with a wider perspective perhaps Di2 and or similar systems could be a boon for some.So I stand corrected.

[NUKe]

Having tried these out recently.I wouldn't buy even of they were a 1/10th of the current price. They are brilliant though the shifting works well at the touch of button, the change is quicker and precise. they could be the thing that saves those vital 100ths of a second, in top flight racing. My worry is when this comes down to the cheap Supermarket bike and never works right. CJ has pointed out the one obvious use for people with limited mobility of the hands. For the rest of us, I doubt there is any advantage. weight saving is probably negated by the battery box but the whole set up gives clean lines.

I think the technology is here to stay, It will get cheaper it will almost certainly spread to MTB's and possibly hybrids, but personally I doubt I'd change any time soon

[Smut Pedaller]

One of the main reasons that the design hasn't changed is because the UCI didn't let it.

The diamond frame bike is not the most efficient or comfortable method of designing a bike, but the racing bods were embarrassed by an OK racer beating everyone else by using a better machine, and so banned them from racing.

In 1933 Francis Faure, a Frenchman, rode a recumbent 28 miles (45 km) in an hour, a new record. In 1934 the UCI (Union Cyclist International) outlawed recumbent bicycles, and has not relented to this day.

Point taken, I am a big fan of recumbents mind you, but while UCI regs have shaped the professional road racing bikes and their derivatives (for the 0.01% of the population that actually races under UCI regs), however they haven't prevented innovation in all other bikes, and that's probably the vast majority. I'm sceptical that electronic shifting will ever make it out of the high-end racing niche, the advantages are obvious for time trial/road racing bikes etc, but this is again a very small niche in the whole picture of cycling where there are other factors take priority like simplicity and cost like with commuting and touring.

re: Arthritis in the hands requiring electronic shifting, this is also pretty niche rather than a majority problem; in fact I'd be more worried about how you would brake which typically requires a lot more hand strain.

[snibgo]

Electronic shifting seems almost inevitable to me.

I'm old enough to remember when cameras were powered by springs that we had to tension by pulling levers. When we had to get off the sofa to switch TV channels. When phones were wired into houses. When I understood how cars worked, and could make a fair stab at servicing them.

From February 2011:

"Change up a gear, Hal."

"Are you really sure you want to do that, Dave?"

"Yup. Change up now, Hal."

"I really don't think that's wise, Dave. Try spinning faster."

"Do it, Hal."

"Daisy, Daisy, give me an answer, do."

I hope that when my legs are no longer capable of "real" cycling, light vehicles will be cheaply available in various configurations with electrical assistance. Automatic gear-change seems a natural part of this.

I'm very happy with my 3x6 gears with d/t shifters because I've had decades of practice, but it's ergonomically weird, like a Land Rover with both low-range and overdrive.