Which Cantilever brakes to purchase?

[Brucey]

Theres problems with clearing mudguards on touring frames with big clearances I believe.

thats a very legitimate concern.

I've seen mini-V's clear touring tyres and mudguards OK but there are at least four variables which might affect this. I think you would have to measure up and see. I found a picture of the thorn with full-on Vs here (as you might expect..)

http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/ThornClubTourBroHiRes.pdf

-and it shows generous mudguard clearance and about 20mm clearance over the mudguard. I think that might take mini-Vs OK but the mudguard might have to come down 5mm or so. Definitely need to measure up.

cheers

[gaz]

.

[BigG]

ALL modern cantilevers are stiff enough and will perform as well as V-brakes if set up properly. The problem with cantilevers is that there are too many variables. You not only have to have levers with the correct cable pull but you must also set up the straddle wire correctly. With V-brakes, there are fewer, or even no, options. Only the correct lever is required. All rim brakes are simply devices for applying the lever pressure to the brake block/rim interface. Rigidity helps reduce unwanted lever travel (including rigidity of the cantilever or V-brake mounts) allowing a higher mechanical advantage to be used. There is no inherent advantage of one type over the other - and that includes road calipers. There are, of course, quite big differences between the performance of different brake shoe compunds and the importance of setting up the shoe toe-in correctly cannot be overlooked. If you find that one make or type works better than another, then it is probably because you have set it up better.

[Brucey]

ALL modern cantilevers are stiff enough and will perform as well as V-brakes if set up properly...

-bit of a controversial statement that.... maybe it was meant to be....

Apart from -I think- those cantis with long arms where the cable mounts are low down/far away so that the arm-to-straddle angle gets closer to 90 degrees as the brake comes on,( instead of further away from 90 degrees, as with others) and maybe a few oddballs I can't recall just now, cantis are characterised by one common thing; a 'falling advantage' geometry, i.e. the further the arms are pulled in, the worse the mechanical advantage becomes. This is almost the wrong way round from how you would choose it to be. And some of the effort is wasted if the hangers are springy, too.

With Vs this doesn't happen; the advantage changes little through the stroke and there cannot be any hanger flex.

I have not done the sums to work out 'which is best' but in any event you don't get something for nothing (although you may get less of it with a strongly 'falling advantage'). By which I mean that, by and large, if you have super power, the blocks are running closer to the rim and/or the cable will need adjusting more often.

I think that with either brake the 'spring' in the stays or forks may be limiting. Some frames have the bosses very close together, which can make V fitment impossible. Sometimes I think that 'bolt mounting' is easier to adjust than 'post mounting'.

All in all I don't think that one type of brake is head and shoulders above the others in any respect bar one; the mini-V's generally stick out sideways less which means less fouling of panniers and racks. I've had to fit them for this exact reason before now.

Personally I prefer the look of some cantis over mini 'V's , but I'd happily use whichever is the best for the job in hand.

cheers

[pete75]

With drop bar levers these are probably your best choice. High quality and work well.

http://www.defietsenmaker.nl/index.php? ... 53&lang=EN

[531colin]

With drop bar levers these are probably your best choice. High quality and work well.

http://www.defietsenmaker.nl/index.php? ... 53&lang=EN

If he still has those, bite his hand off, its a no-brainer.
Set them up as mid-profile, ie the cable attachment as high as you can get it, they will have better mechanical advantage than pure wide-profile brakes like CR720, and though the action is regressive, its not fiercely regressive like low-profile cantis, where you must set the pads a hair's breadth from the rim, because the MA falls off alarmingly as the straddle bridge rises. They also fit older bikes where the front canti bosses are closer together.

Same guy still has Stronglight replacement roller bearings for 1" headsets.......What a star he is!

[Brucey]

These are good brakes; I paid the same amount 20 years ago for these brakes and I thought it a bargain then. These brakes are essentially the Mk1 Deore cantilever, but without the anodising (which gave problems sometimes) and with a steel rather than Aluminium wedge washer (which would also crack routinely) .

There is -although you cannot see it easily- about 4-5mm of vertical adjustment in the pads. This is just enough to allow braze-ons to be carefully positioned so that a frame can run 27" wheels or 700c wheels with the same brakes.

My only criticism of this brake -other than the amount the arms stick out- is that the post mount is a little ahead of the boss on the front brake. This makes use of the most asymmetric brake pad you can find advisable at the front. Symmetric pads are fine at the rear. I have these brakes fitted on several bicycles; they have given very good service and show no signs of quitting anytime soon.

cheers

[reohn2]

I had the same brakes fitted to and early '90's Dawes SG tandem,they were great stoppers

[BigG]

ALL modern cantilevers are stiff enough and will perform as well as V-brakes if set up properly...

-bit of a controversial statement that.... maybe it was meant to be....

Apart from -I think- those cantis with long arms where the cable mounts are low down/far away so that the arm-to-straddle angle gets closer to 90 degrees as the brake comes on,( instead of further away from 90 degrees, as with others) and maybe a few oddballs I can't recall just now, cantis are characterised by one common thing; a 'falling advantage' geometry, i.e. the further the arms are pulled in, the worse the mechanical advantage becomes. This is almost the wrong way round from how you would choose it to be. And some of the effort is wasted if the hangers are springy, too.

With Vs this doesn't happen; the advantage changes little through the stroke and there cannot be any hanger flex.

I have not done the sums to work out 'which is best' but in any event you don't get something for nothing (although you may get less of it with a strongly 'falling advantage'). By which I mean that, by and large, if you have super power, the blocks are running closer to the rim and/or the cable will need adjusting more often.

I think that with either brake the 'spring' in the stays or forks may be limiting. Some frames have the bosses very close together, which can make V fitment impossible. Sometimes I think that 'bolt mounting' is easier to adjust than 'post mounting'.

All in all I don't think that one type of brake is head and shoulders above the others in any respect bar one; the mini-V's generally stick out sideways less which means less fouling of panniers and racks. I've had to fit them for this exact reason before now.

Personally I prefer the look of some cantis over mini 'V's , but I'd happily use whichever is the best for the job in hand.

cheers

I agree with all of that. Getting stiff rear hangers is easy. Just use those that hang from the seat bolt. Getting front hangers is harder. In desperation, I have used a drilled stem (Cinelli used to make these) but this means altering the brake set-up any time you move the bar height. The cast alloy ones are good, but I cannot find any that clear my old 1" headset. The mechanical advantage issue is not too important as it only varies a little through the normal operating range of the brake. The other key lack of stiffness often comes in the brazed-on pivots. The seat stays on many frames (my old Holdsworth LaQuelda was particularly bad) both twist and bow out under load. The mtb so-called brake boosters no doubt help if you have space to fit them.

[531colin]

................. Getting front hangers is harder............... The cast alloy ones are good, but I cannot find any that clear my old 1" headset. ............

http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m2b0s101p1809

[tooley92]

With drop bar levers these are probably your best choice. High quality and work well.

http://www.defietsenmaker.nl/index.php? ... 53&lang=EN

If he still has those, bite his hand off, its a no-brainer.
Set them up as mid-profile, ie the cable attachment as high as you can get it, they will have better mechanical advantage than pure wide-profile brakes like CR720, and though the action is regressive, its not fiercely regressive like low-profile cantis, where you must set the pads a hair's breadth from the rim, because the MA falls off alarmingly as the straddle bridge rises. They also fit older bikes where the front canti bosses are closer together.

Same guy still has Stronglight replacement roller bearings for 1" headsets.......What a star he is!

Spot on, best cantilevers ever! I have a set on both my heavy tourer and my audax bike (I am 100kg so they need to be good!), both with Koolstop pads. They can be a bit of a faff to get set up initially but once you get the knack aren't too bad.

I might have to order a set of the Stronglight A9 headset bearings - just in case!

[531colin]

................My only criticism of this brake -.................- is that the post mount is a little ahead of the boss on the front brake. This makes use of the most asymmetric brake pad you can find advisable at the front. Symmetric pads are fine at the rear. ............

You mentioned this earlier....why is it important to you?....it seems our experiences may be different?
I only have one of these brakes still in use, its on the front, with Koolstop cyclo cross pads, which are hardly offset at all. Its fine.
I took off the rear one, I got fed up with trying to stop it squealing like a stuck pig all the time. I replaced it with a CR 720, where the pads are a bit in front of the arms (when used at the rear)....I was so impressed with the quiet, I used CR720 for the rear on another bike. (mine have the "road" length pads, or at least not the long "V" type pads....it seems random what they come with!)

[CREPELLO]

................My only criticism of this brake -.................- is that the post mount is a little ahead of the boss on the front brake. This makes use of the most asymmetric brake pad you can find advisable at the front. Symmetric pads are fine at the rear. ............

You mentioned this earlier....why is it important to you?....it seems our experiences may be different?
I only have one of these brakes still in use, its on the front, with Koolstop cyclo cross pads, which are hardly offset at all. Its fine.

Is this a concern about the calliper twisting away from the rim under pressure if the pad is set too far forward from the boss? I reckon it's a problem anyway, particularly at the back (it's easy to see the stays twisting under load), so fair point. A brake booster would negate this, no?

................. Getting front hangers is harder............... The cast alloy ones are good, but I cannot find any that clear my old 1" headset. ............

http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m2b0s101p1809

Got one of those - it'll need a fat wide washer to clear the bottom headset cup. It would be helpful if this hanger was sold with spacers. I used a 6-8mm Tubus spacer.

[Brucey]

yup, twisting appears to be the issue as far as I can tell. This applies to all cantis/Vs to some extent but to the shimano brake in particular (although it is by no means the worst one you can get). At the rear this seems to give a brake that comes on harder than it might otherwise... or squeals.....

At the front the pads wear at the rear (leading) edge because of the twisting, and I think this can make the brake not perform quite linerarly with increasing force, as well. Symmetric pads wear much less evenly than asymmetric pads, too.

In terms of force vectors, the resultant of the clamping force and the retarding force will be (for a pad with a friction coefficent of '1' say) angled at 45 degrees. If the pad itself is rigid, this vector should pass through the middle of the braking surface and hopefully somewhere near or through the brake pivot when viewed in plan.

For post mount pads the post itself is probably one of the bendier bits, but slop in the bushing and frame flex also play a part.

The best V brakes always come with asymmetric pads and the post is mounted in line with the bushing centre. These show the least uneven pad wear, even when the bushings are a little bit worn. This mirrors my experience with cantis, too.

cheers

[531colin]

Confirms what I thought, your experience is different to mine...........

.........At the front the pads wear at the rear (leading) edge because of the twisting, and I think this can make the brake not perform quite linerarly with increasing force, as well. Symmetric pads wear much less evenly than asymmetric pads, too.............

I never had a brake where the pads wear to automatically toe themselves in....could save a lot of time! On the contrary, I find that if I "toe in" it disappears as the pads wear.

yup, twisting appears to be the issue as far as I can tell............ At the rear this seems to give a brake that comes on harder than it might otherwise... or squeals...........

How do I tell if my brake does "come on harder" than it might if it twisted less? I'm not aware of any brake grab.
Squeal is a widespread problem with cantis, I assume the pads "grip then slip" at a frequency that "something" resonates to. Although it seems cantis can squeal in just about any circumstance, I particularly associate canti squeal with the rims being wet and/or dirty, and with the rear brake .....but then the rear rim seems to get more muck?
I swapped Shimano cantis, with the pad just behind the arm (on the back) for CR 720 with the pad on or in front of the arm (on the back) and got blissful quiet....is it really that simple?...maybe not, because when I re-assembled the Shimano brake with the pad the other side of the arm, it still squealed relentlessly.