Cycling UK Forum

Why when I wrote the name of the Italian fashion and leather goods label, part of the Goochi Group, which is owned by French company PPR. founded by Guccio Goochi in Florence in 1921, did the words [theiving scum] appear in the text instead?

I have already put up a message trying to explain how ridiculous such opinionated propoganda is, and I will add to that now that whoever took the descision made me look up the company on the internet, defeating there presumed objective, i.e. some sort of vendetta against the company.

The thread was deleted by Hemipode, to whom I messaged
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You write:

The answers to your post in the 'Using the Forum - request help : report difficulties' section can be found here - viewtopic.php?f=15&t=10801 .

No they are not. Could you please tell me how is "Goochi" (deliberately spelt wrong as opposed to G U C C I) is somehow unbalanced &/or abusive.

You write:

Free speech is welcomed as long as it is done in a balanced & non-abusive manner.

Could you please define balanced and non abusive. I consider my last post, which you have censored both balanced and non-abusive, but the problem is now we can't discuss it in an open forum. Even if it is not balanced you really are making a rod for your own back here as loads of posts are 'not balanced' by some criteria, just as many might be considered abusive.

Luckily I have kept a screenshot of the posts, and if anybody would like a copy I will gladly send it, just leave a message on this thread and I will PM it. But please, not if you are somehow offended by such trivialities that Kuntz scored the goal past Seaman in the European Football Championship of 1996 and the 1954 world cup final was held in the Wankdorf stadium. I mean, what cycling organisation would be left to join?

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I consider it an abuse of fish that Hemipode uses this forum to talk about torturing them (http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=30787&p=247924&hilit=hemipode#p247924) and imagine his pleasure in puncturing an animal's body parts and then dragging it against its will while it fights for its life merely to brag about it and throw it back in is certainly unbalanced. If Hemipode considers that this is a form of abuse, well I am proud of that, just as any deserved criticism might be interpreted so.
I sincerely hope I do not contribute to balance if the fulcrum is somewhere half way between the rational and extreme. I want to weight things totally in favour of the objective and quantifiable.

Please do not delete this, I am a Life Member of the CTC and wish to remain so. I am sure that the substitution of 'Guc*i' in these messages is in no way endorsed by the majority of sensible members and the administration of the CTC, whom I consider to be doing the best job they have done for years.

Your posts were removed due to the offensive language & other breaches of Forum rules that were contained within them.

You were directed to the rules regarding the offensive language. I'm glad to see you have not repeated them again.

Unfortunately you seem fit to now present a distorted picture of the facts by this post.

As per the p.m. I have sent you, the matter now rests with the moderators,

Regards,

Hemipode

I have just recieved another PM from Hemipode

"As regards to certain brand names ... the software used on this Forum detects & alters them as an aid to highlighting activity by spammers. This can sometimes be inconvenient to genuine posters but this can easily be got round so that we know what you are on about."

Which certainly doesn't answer my question "Could you please tell me how is "Goochi" (deliberately spelt wrong as opposed to G U C C I) is somehow unbalanced &/or abusive.

I wrote "Goochi" (deliberately spelt wrong as opposed to G U C C I) and it was replaced by "[ we are thieving scum ]".

Now, I am not Rumpole of the Baily, but I would be very worried that any of me learned freinds who were presented with this would think their were grounds for libel. I mean, "[commercial company name deleted]" would at least explain a little.

And who decides 'certain brand names'?

Can I please ask you to address your questions directly to Admin and/or the Moderators?

The forum software automatically reacts to certain words. For instance - the word for female dog! - even I cannot write it without disguising it! If you don't like the software, do something about it. It works very simply and without any control from the staff. I repeat, if you don't like it, do something about it. Message the admin staff and make your points - perhaps they'll listen to you and alter something.

For my own part, I'm sick to the back teeth with spam. The brand to which you refer is only a part of it. What about the training shoes; or the erectile disfunction tablets; or handbags, shoes and jeans; or general finance, banks and even bicycle products? I'm a Spambuster, and much of my time is taken up in removing spam, approving posts and removing bad language. That is my job - just like Hemipode's and others too. We do it without pay or even time off in lieu.

I repeat again, if you want to change something about the way the forum works, or change the rules, or swear and be abusive - ask the admin staff. I'm sure they'll listen to constructive argument.

Spam used to be a big problem on this forum. Graham used the autocensoring feature to sabotage it. More recently other techniques have also been used and taken together, spam on here is now virtually non-existent. It's years since I've logged on to find every board cluttered with this annoying rubbish. One element of this has been the attention to detail of the spambusters (I know this because for a short while, I performed that function.)

If everybody dismounts from high horses and joins in a round of thanks for the people who make this forum so good to use, I'm sure we can move on to something more interesting.

This is not an adult only forum. I saw the original post and if it remained, this forum would not be acceptable in the classroom environment.
Nor would I be able to recommend it to my friends for their kids to use.
My kids are a bit rougher than that so they wouldnt mind.

I think the moderators were totally justified in removing it, I am just surprised it took so long.

But please, not if you are somehow offended by such trivialities that Kuntz scored the goal past Seaman in the European Football Championship of 1996 and the 1954 world cup final was held in the Wankdorf stadium. I mean, what cycling organisation would be left to join?

This is acceptable and notice it has been allowed to remain because they are "real" names and not thinly disguised swear words. Which would also be accepted in a classroom environment. Though the teacher may think it a bit juvenile.

meic wrote: I am just surprised it took so long.

The trouble is, the "staff" are unpaid, overworked, and totally volunteered.

I ain't complaining, and I'm not pointing at you Meic for saying it, but sometimes it all really gets up my nose. No doubt some people have noticed my post count. Approaching 20,000 of the damned things! It is a measure of how many times I come on here, but I - and the others - cannot be on here all the time.

End of - very friendly - rant!

Sorry, my meaning behind those words was "swearing normally disappears from this forum at the speed of [inappropriate word removed] off a shovel". However it was Sunday morning.

Ah a bite! Now let's see if we can reel this one in. Hemipode's last post is quoted, and the rest of the text is mine. I would suggest that Hemipode's last text is either pointless, distracting or untrue.

Your posts were removed due to the offensive language & other breaches of Forum rules that were contained within them.

Pointless. I knew already, I don't think I ever asked why my posts were removed. That is difficult to evidence as Hemipode has removed them!

You were directed to the rules regarding the offensive language. I'm glad to see you have not repeated them again.

Pointless. And Pointless.

Unfortunately you seem fit to now present a distorted picture of the facts by this post.

Lie. On re-reading I am confident that there is no distortion of the facts, and that Hemipode's assertion should be taken for what it is, an ad hominem attack on me by a person who has removed, or at least been party to the removal of any evidence that contradicts this obvious fallacy, concoted, I might suggest, by a person who could have just as easily said 'whoops we got it wrong on Guc*i, we'll fix it' instead of digging himself into a situation where his only defense of the indefensible is a succesion of non-sequiters; red herrings, appeals to ignorance and untruths.

Hemipode: If I have got anything wrong, please illustrate it. If you don't like fishing, let us know, if you don't want to brag about it, why do you appear to do so on the thread quoted? If you never chuck 'em back I'm sorry for assuming.

But most importantly, please answer the questions posed.
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I have re-read some recently posted messages, including 'please deal with moderator' and am adding to this.

First, well done anybody who contributes, moderators, posters etc to a very active forum, I enjoy it and appreciate it. I still get very frustrated when I take time out to make posts to see them edited. I initially posted two questions, one about Guc*i and one about swearing in general. Those questions have not been answred other than with a 'because it's there' kind of reply

Second, Inviting me to deal with the issues regarding PMs to moderators is a bit like being asked to shut up. I think that this is a fundamentally important issue for a multitude of reasons, and certainly has more relevance than inflicting pain upon animals within these forums, therefore I am trying to keep the thread open. So I am keeping this open to general debate.

Thanks for joining in, the latter posts go a little way to adressing my initial questions, but I am still livid that my posts were deleted without the questions being answered.

Once any form of censorship is imposed two things are at risk, the opportunity to illustrate that a point, or the language somebody wishes to use is wrong, but more importantly denying an audience the potential to be informed. We should always consider these.

I fully sympathise with any forum that suffers spam (been there, done that etc), nevertheless I take my writing seriously, and poor as it is, I object that it is altered, I suppose the same way if I had a painting desecrated with bits of blu tac on the boobies.

Now... Do you know of a site where I can get Viagr*?

Skidd,

It seems to me that you and Hemipode are mixing up an argument over two different issues.

The original complaint about Gucci which Hemipode hasnt explained to your satisfaction, well frankly, he doesnt have to and I suggest that you leave our volunteer moderators alone because I dont want to have to take over if they get driven out.

The second issue is about the post that was removed, that deserved to be removed for the swearing in it that violated the forum rules, if it also removed your point about Gucci then that was a fault of going so excessively overboard with the gratuitous thinly veiled swearing.

Personally I would have just redacted the swearing part of it but they probably have better things to do with their lives. The excessive "swearing" gave adequate excuse for total removal.

Note: Hemipode was directed to deal with the post by another Forum member, so he didnt even start this of his own back.

skidd wrote:.......... I take my writing seriously, and poor as it is, I object that it is altered, I suppose the same way if I had a painting desecrated with bits of blu tac on the boobies.

Not seriously enough I fear.

None of your posts have been deleted, and no one is asking you to shut up. I have seen your posts, and I too would have done what Hemipode has done. No doubt you would have done the same in our position?

Your posts have been removed to a place out of public view to be considered by the staff.
memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=4
memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=43

I guarantee you will be contacted.

Mick F wrote:I repeat again, if you want to change something about the way the forum works, or change the rules, or swear and be abusive - ask the admin staff. I'm sure they'll listen to constructive argument.

I flagged up the posts made by skidd due to the offensive language contained in them. I have thanked Hemipode for removing them from public view.

It is thanks to constructive argument that I can post the words Royal Air Force on these boards. It's more effective than abusive ranting.

skidd wrote: ....Once any form of censorship is imposed two things are at risk, the opportunity to illustrate that a point, or the language somebody wishes to use is wrong, but more importantly denying an audience the potential to be informed. We should always consider these.

I fully sympathise with any forum that suffers spam (been there, done that etc), nevertheless I take my writing seriously, and poor as it is, I object that it is altered, I suppose the same way if I had a painting desecrated with bits of blu tac on the boobies.

....

I'd suggest that the issue here is about what it appropriate. Whatever the artistic merits of your reported cursing (which I didn't read) the forum rules make swearing inappropriate on here. I've expressed my own reservations about this, without being intentionally abusive but I'm happy to comply with the rules. Expression isn't being stifled, it's just being diverted elsewhere, where it's considered ok and therefore appropriate.

The bottom line is this...

Because of the amount of spam that we had for certain makes of product, the forum was changed so that when someone tried to spam the board with adverts for these particular makes it would replace them with a term that was more fitting. This was because we were getting slightly over run with spam.

Unfortunately, once in a while someone tries to make a totally legitimate post about one of these companies, and they are very justifiably surprised that their post appears with a substituted phrase in it. In the main, users tend to make a polite query about this substitution and the forum staff explain exactly what the issue is and every one says "fair enough" and gets on with it in peace and harmony.

Alas, in this instant you seem to have gone to the trouble of intentionally breaking the forum rules on swearing (the rules that you signed up to when creating your account on the forum) as a reaction to the issue explained above. This, obviously is not on and your posts were removed from the visible part of the forum. In the early days we polled the forum users to get their views on whether to allow swearing or not - the forum's decision was that we shouldn't as we wanted it to be the type of forum where parents would be happy for their young children to browse, plus this forum also represents the CTC and so, just as we wouldn't have swearing in the letters pages of Cycle, so we don't here.

I'd suggest that in future, if you have queries about how the forum works then you use a less provocative method of voicing them, as your current method hasn't really done anything but cause annoyance all around, particularly, it would seem, to yourself.

meic,

You wrote:

It seems to me that you and Hemipode are mixing up an argument over two different issues.

I am not.

Hemipode ...doesnt have to (explain)"

He should not have tried

and I suggest that you leave our volunteer moderators alone because I don't want to have to take over if they get driven out.

Appeal to emotion - please don't use these

The second issue is about the post that was removed

I have no issue about why it was removed.
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Mick F:

I wrote "I take my writing seriously.." , and you replied

Not seriously enough I fear.

Get some counselling

None of your posts have been deleted

Sorry - should have said 'removed'. Now do we really want to get that picky about semantics? Spelling and punctuation as well?

no one is asking you to shut up

I never said that. I said "a bit like being asked to shut up"

No doubt you would have done the same in our position?

No I wouldn't. I would like to think I would have raised the point about 'guc*i' and PM'd the author answering his questions along the lines of

"whoops, got it wrong with Guc*i, I'll see if we can do owt about it, but we do have these filters, sorry, please be patient", and

"Yeah, you have a good point about swearing, after all they are only words, but we have to be politic in this world, and we do have policy regarding it that is established on these forums. (look at the top of the list of topics up a level). because of this policy I have had to take down your posts, but, please keep posting. Here is a moderatator you can bring it up with, and by all means edit the post to remove the swearing. Sounds like a good couple of bikerides though!, I spent midsummer in the Orkneys in 2010 and had a great time cycling up to Westray."

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Addition after reading the last couple of posts. Nobody has yet said "Yeah it is a bit daft", though Si, in his last well written post, has got closest with 'justifiably surprised"

I did not read the full conditions when I signed up, and I did not know of any poll taken by the members re. swearing. That does not invalidate the point of view that swearing may sometimes be appropriate, that using brand names is sometimes neccesary and that by placing impositions on the use of such just creates a 'rod for our own backs'. I am not endorsing uncalled for swearing, and my removed post used thinly vieled swearing to illustrate this very point, not becase it was designed to be abusive. As for protecting children, that is all I have ever wanted, but there is considerable evidence to suggest that having banned words is not a particularly effective way of achieving this objective. It may invite 'juvinile' behaviour (hooray for that, I love South Park). I'm not saying change the rules. I am asking don't diss someone 'cos they disagree occasionally, by all means deconstruct the points they are making, but please use evidence.