Cycling UK Forum

Hi

I wonder if anyone knows more about this.

I thought it would be useful to use a program to plan a route using lots of B-roads on a computer, feed this as waypoints into a GPS device and then use it to get around.

I suppose this would need a PC program and a good GPS device, with simple design and good long battery life.

It would also be nice to have it record a route and display it.

Is there anything like this in existence? I was looking at the NaviGPS http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/NaviGPS

Any ideas?

Also is there software like this for Windows Mobile 5 PDAs - I have one with GPS built-in.

Hi I use a Garmin GPS device which mounts onto the handlebars.

I have Tracklogs software which covers the whole of England. I use this to plan routes then upload to the Garmin.

I have mapping software for the Garmin, all of GB fits onto a 1GB microcard!.

I select the appropriate route from the uploaded ones on the Garmin, select navigate and follow either the on-screen instructions or the map on the colour screen.

If I'm not using the Garmin to follow a route but am out with my club, I can upload the day's route from the Garmin into Tracklogs which overlays it onto a OS style 1:50 000 map.

Finally I can use the Garmin to send and receive routes from the CTC's mapping project. Hope this helps, good luck!

The garmin Edge 205 and 305 do all this, but don't display a map on the unit. You get a line with direction indicator. You can put routes onto it to follow, or upload your route (and a whole load of other stats) to your pc then you get home.

http://www8.garmin.com/uk/fitness/edge205.htm

They're very cheap if you can buy from the USA.

The Garmin devices look really interesting.

I wonder if you could tell me more about how to get the routes on in the first place. For example, I cycled up to Cambridge at the weekend, and ended up using TomTom on my phone to identify small B and C roads. Do these products come with complete UK maps where I can set up the route first like this, and then the device can direct me? How does it do if you move off route? I also can't understand how the screen can tell you what direction to take...

What I do is plan a route on the PC using Tracklogs. This basically consists of joining trackpoints on the route to create a "dot-to-dot" effect overlaying on the on-screen OS-style maps.

Load this to the GPS. Select the route, select navigate and the route appears as a track to follow. Depending on the unit and how it's set up it will bleep at you to turn. The screen will tell you which way and how far is the next turn. Just like a car's sat-nav system.

There are a number of software options, Traclogs, Fugawi and Memory-Map are all similar.

I use the Memory-Map which comes with "pocket Navigator" a WM5 compatible program.

Beware though, whilst almost all GPS will be compatible, there are differences.

The Garmin edge system will NOT do OS map references, track points are in latitude and longtitude

If you want to work in the standard OS map references then the EDge series have a serious shortfall.

Tracklogs/MemoryMap/Fugawi/Anquet are OS mapping on your PC, used for planning and reviewing routes.

Non-mapping GPS units (edge 205/305, geko, basic eTrex etc), are good for following a prepared route, and recording where you've been, but are not much good if you get off-route (eg road closure).

Mapping GPS units (eTrex Legend Cx, GPSMap60Cx etc) will record where you've been, follow prepared routes, display a basic on-screen road map, and will navigate you to places like a car satnav.
To get the full benefit, you have to pay extra for the mapping data to load onto them, though this could be offset against the fact that the Tracklogs etc OS mapping could be dispensed with as the GPS map data can also be used on the PC for planning (looks and functions similar to MS Autoroute).

What I don't like about the Edge series is that they have built in rechargable batteries, which means no rides over about 8 hours, and no use on holiday unless you can guarantee secure access to a mains socket every night (ie not camping or youth hostels). They are very good for recording ride data, but as a navigation tool they are amonst the worst.

chrisgeller wrote:The Garmin devices look really interesting.

I wonder if you could tell me more about how to get the routes on in the first place. For example, I cycled up to Cambridge at the weekend, and ended up using TomTom on my phone to identify small B and C roads. Do these products come with complete UK maps where I can set up the route first like this, and then the device can direct me? How does it do if you move off route? I also can't understand how the screen can tell you what direction to take...

If you have a non-mapping GPS, you get an on-screen arrow that points the way you should be going, so if you get to a junction and the arrow is pointing left, you go left. If you are navigating a route (rather than a track), you also get a distance to the next junction and a warning beep when you get close. If you get off route, you just get the "you are here" pointer and trail moving away from the route into blank nothingness.

Mapping GPS can work as above, but with the appropriate map data, will give 2-line text instructions at the top of the screen (eg "in 250m turn left on Bath Road"), together with a zoomed in plan of the junction layout and arrows showing where you should be going. If you get off route, it will invent a new route from where you are to where you are going, and direct you along that instead. If you haven't disallowed U-turns in the setup, this often just means it tells you to turn round and go back.

The Garmin units I've seen come with very basic map data only (fairly crude M, A and B roads only) so you have to buy map data to make them useful. There are 2 levels of data available - full routing (as above), or basic (detailed on-screen roads, but no navigation text or route-finding).
It may be that some other brands (Lowrance?) come with better built-in maps than the basic Garmin.

andrew_s wrote:Mapping GPS units (eTrex Legend Cx, GPSMap60Cx etc) will record where you've been, follow prepared routes, display a basic on-screen road map, and will navigate you to places like a car satnav.

Thanks for a very informative reply Andrew. I hadn't realised that the more sophisticated "outdoor" style GPS units could also work like a motoring "satnav".

I often hear of cyclists using Tom Tom or the like to plan cycing routes, but wonder what sort of cycling routes they get. I guess that the kind of cyclist who is happy with these routes will be a confirmed roadie, who wouldn't use a cycletrack even if it was going his way and tolerates the traffic on main roads in preference to the often inferior surfaces of minor roads. I guess that I, as one who delights in exploring the least trafficked backroads and byways, would not be as happy with these routes, but I don't really know.

Can anyone who uses satnav tell us as to what sort of cycle route they actually get, and what they do to get it? Presuamably you can say "no motorways", but can you also limit trunk and A-road usage? And having said "no motorways", would a route from Bristol to Chepstow involve a 60-mile detour via Gloucester, because the software doesn't know there is a bikepath over the Severn bridge? Presumably the resulting route also takes no account of hills - or does it?

Tom-Tom says it has a "bike" mode, but what does it do? Do they mean motorbike? Or does it mean they have added cycle tracks to their roads database, if not in the UK then perhaps in the Netherlands at least?

Hi

Yes you can set the routing software on the GPS to avoid motorways, toll roads , u-turns etc but why would you want to?

Plan the route using a PC-based software package and you can avoid everything you want to avoid.

Because OS maps often if at all show cycle-paths to software packages based around OS data won't either.

CJ wrote:Thanks for a very informative reply Andrew. I hadn't realised that the more sophisticated "outdoor" style GPS units could also work like a motoring "satnav".

I often hear of cyclists using Tom Tom or the like to plan cycing routes, but wonder what sort of cycling routes they get. I guess that the kind of cyclist who is happy with these routes will be a confirmed roadie, who wouldn't use a cycletrack even if it was going his way and tolerates the traffic on main roads in preference to the often inferior surfaces of minor roads. I guess that I, as one who delights in exploring the least trafficked backroads and byways, would not be as happy with these routes, but I don't really know.

Can anyone who uses satnav tell us as to what sort of cycle route they actually get, and what they do to get it? Presuamably you can say "no motorways", but can you also limit trunk and A-road usage? And having said "no motorways", would a route from Bristol to Chepstow involve a 60-mile detour via Gloucester, because the software doesn't know there is a bikepath over the Severn bridge? Presumably the resulting route also takes no account of hills - or does it?

Tom-Tom says it has a "bike" mode, but what does it do? Do they mean motorbike? Or does it mean they have added cycle tracks to their roads database, if not in the UK then perhaps in the Netherlands at least?

As far as I can make out, the "bike" mode will just mean that any planned routes will avoid using motorways and any other roads that have bike bans. As far as I know, TomTom, Garmin etc all source their road mapping data from Navteq, and will have much the same limitations. One also shouldn't place too much reliance in the quality of bike-related data.
Using it in bike mode in a car, it tried to direct me off the M5 at every junction until I changed it at the services. It plans a route up through Gloucester rather than over the Severn Bridge. Navigating through central Bruges, it obeyed all the car one-way streets, although many/most of them allow 2-way passage for bikes and mopeds.
Calculated routes also ignore hills, the mapping data doesn't have much in the way of tracks or cycle lanes.
When routing over the Severn Bridge, I just put a waypoint each side of the bridge and ignored the instructions to go off up the A48. I believe that putting a waypoint in the middle of the bridge will work too.

The routing options are:
. Mode = Car/bike/Truck/Pedestrian etc
. Avoid = U-turns/Toll Roads/Highways/Unpaved Roads/Carpool Lanes
I haven't worked out exactly what it means by "Highways" yet. It certainly includes motorways and major A-roads. The trouble with setting it to avoid them is that it will put in a 10-mile detour to avoid 200m of A40.

I generally leave mine in car mode, and just avoid U-turns. When navigating, I set it to just use the shortest distance between waypoints, and use my skill and judgement to position the waypoints so the route goes where I want it to go. Planning the route overall, I do myself on a large-scale map.
Avoiding U-turns means that if you go off-route, or conciously vary the route, if just comes up with a new route to the next waypoint rather than nagging you to turn round.

I generally find that you only need one waypoint every 8-10 miles or so, and that having so few waypoints means that it is practical to enter the route directly on the GPS (rather than via a PC). This allows you to change the route during a ride, or plan the return leg at lunchtime. It's also handy on holiday without a PC, as you can enter the day's route during breakfast.

Using the routefinding without having planned any sort of route isn't something I've done much of. I usually only use it for directing me to destinations in unfamiliar towns, and will often not ask to be navigated until I reach the edge of town.

The Garmin routing algorithms can also behave in a very odd manner on occasion, so you do have to keep an eye on them.

Example (from the Elenith 300k)
Route from Tregaron to Rhayader - the shortest route should be via Pontrhydygroes and Cwmystwyth.
In car mode, it finds the route correctly.
In bike mode, it takes a slightly different route to Pontrhydygroes, then goes off to Devils Bridge and down to Rhayader via the A44, for a considerable extra distance. However putting an intermediate waypoint in Pontrhydygroes somehow persuades it to take the Cwmystwyth road instead

Jonboy wrote:Hi

Yes you can set the routing software on the GPS to avoid motorways, toll roads , u-turns etc but why would you want to?

Plan the route using a PC-based software package and you can avoid everything you want to avoid.

because
a) I don't want to add a laptop to my cycling luggage
b) I don't want the inflexibility of sticking religiously to routes I loaded into the GPS at the start of my tour (or even just the start of the day)

The higher end GPS models have the ability to load all the topographical data on a microcard. Typically all of GB will fit so you can use the maps on the GPS device to work out where to go, change your route or work out a new one if you wish. BUT it's not so user-friendly.

andrew_s wrote:The Garmin routing algorithms can also behave in a very odd manner on occasion, so you do have to keep an eye on them.

Example (from the Elenith 300k)
Route from Tregaron to Rhayader - the shortest route should be via Pontrhydygroes and Cwmystwyth.
In car mode, it finds the route correctly.
In bike mode, it takes a slightly different route to Pontrhydygroes, then goes off to Devils Bridge and down to Rhayader via the A44, for a considerable extra distance. However putting an intermediate waypoint in Pontrhydygroes somehow persuades it to take the Cwmystwyth road instead

Do you think it could be trying to avoid steep hills? Or maybe it (mistakenly) considers all classified roads as bad as each other and tries to maximise the percentage of unclassified, even if the total distance is bigger. I guess the long stretch of minor road on the opposite side of the Gwy valley from the A470 boosts the lanes percentage of the "bike" route. But the A44 is a trunk road so that's a really weird choice whatever.

Gratified to hear that my hunch about the Severn Bridge is right.

If bike mode is next to useless (in UK at least), how hard is it to keep it in the country lanes when in car mode? Surely it'll keep trying to drag you onto the nearest main road, and are the resulting routes consequently more suitable for speed-focussed cyclists than seekers after peace-and-quiet?

For those of the latter persuasion: might it require fewer intermediate waypoints to curb the crazier excursions of bike mode, than are needed to keep car mode on the windy and narrow?