road sign design and permission

[crimble]

Since CTC forums have been unbelievably helpful two days running I am going to have a shot at making it three in a row.......

I am opening a new bike shop soon. I am thinking of presenting my signs in the manner of cycling based road signs. One will be on view at a road junction and one in an industrial park. They will not be of the size and scale usually expected of cycling signs but will use the transport medium font, bike symbol and relevant colours.

Does anyone know if there would be any legal objection to these or copyright issues as long as the relevant planning permission pertains? These will not be road signs per se. Alternately if you don't know is there a specific person to contact who can give me definite guidance on the matter, or an appropriate piece of text / legislation?

[snibgo]

Hmm, interesting question. I don't know the legal answer.

However, I suspect the authorities don't want a proliferation of signs that look like traffic signs but aren't, especially if they are visible from the road. On that basis, they might jump on you, perhaps using copyright in the font and symbols as a reason.

If you use a font and symbol that are similar but not identical to the official versions, and especially if you use different colours, I don't think they would object -- or have any grounds for doing so.

I note that documents such as http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/t ... phabet.pdf and http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/t ... ter-07.pdf are crown copyright, but there is no mention of copyright of the elements. (There doen't need to be an explicit mention, of course. These words are my copyright, even without me saying so.)

Good luck with the project.

[Ambler]

You could always slightly "tweak" the image to make it "different" and therefore not subject to copyright.

[snibgo]

"Tweaking" may not be enough. Copyright law is complex, but "copying" doesn't need to be exact before it becomes a transgression.

[patricktaylor]

... I am opening a new bike shop soon. I am thinking of presenting my signs in the manner of cycling based road signs ...

If it was me, I wouldn't do that even if I could. It is too 'official' - I tend to ignore cycling based road signs anyway. Your bike shop (good luck with it BTW) needs its own distinct visual identity and that is what you want to promote in a consistent manner. I think you'd get into bother if your signs mimicked official road signs, even with a slightly different font.

[RickH]

You could always slightly "tweak" the image to make it "different" and therefore not subject to copyright.

You have to be careful - even a "tweaked" image can be judged to be in breach of copyright if it is made to be in the style of a copyrighted image. There was a recent case (much discussed in photography forums) where someone tried to use an image commercially that they had created using the same elements as a commercially available image (that they didn't want to pay for use of) and they were found against even though the 2 images were significantly different. The case did appear to hinge on the trying to avoid paying for a commercial image.

This is slightly different as the signs are not commercially available as such. I would suggest that, before you get too far beyond initial ideas, that you consult with the council (do you need permission for signage anyway?) rather than spending money on something that you may get asked to take down.

[Malaconotus]

Use French, German or Usanian sign design and colours?

[Ambler]

Well having worked in the textile trade it was rife when a fabric became successful.
Of course the copies were never the same, but the overall theme fit with the original.

[cycle cat]

Where are you? Any jobs going?

[alicej]

I don't think it's the copyright you need to worry about so much as the possibility of misleading road users. Contact your local council's Highways Department - their contact details are probably on the council's website.

[gaz]

Have a look at Outdoor advertisements and signs by Department for Communities and Local Government Planning Policy Guidance 19: Outdoor Advertisement Control.

[crimble]

thanks gaz, that is relevant, if very confusing. Maybe I need to contact the planning department too.

[ambodach]

In my somewhat limited experience of this in Scotland roadside signs are often put up with no permission from anybody and are ignored by the authorities. However they are strictly illegal and from time to time those who put them up are ordered to remove them or they can be removed and the perpetrator charged for this service.In Argyll recently there was a furore recently when signs which had been up for years were ordered to be removed by what appeared to be a jobsworth in the local council. Not only are you supposed to have planning permission for anything other than a small (and preferably insignificant) sign on your premises but anything on or near the roadside is a traffic hazard to the roads authority.Beware, you may get off with it but better be on the safe side and check it out.You may get off with short term advertising to get your business started and then word of mouth works wonders if you do a good job.

[goatwarden]

It's exactly what one shop local to me has (Bike Station in Yate). His sign looks pretty similar to a National Cycle Route pointer I think and works pretty well. It is actually on private land but immediately adjacent to the pavement but, knowing the owner, I doubt he would have bothered establishing whether he needed any permission. The worst that could happen is that he might be told to remove it.

[alicej]

It's exactly what one shop local to me has (Bike Station in Yate). His sign looks pretty similar to a National Cycle Route pointer I think and works pretty well. It is actually on private land but immediately adjacent to the pavement but, knowing the owner, I doubt he would have bothered establishing whether he needed any permission. The worst that could happen is that he might be told to remove it.

Surely the worst that could happen is that cyclists trying to follow an NCN route get misdirected and spend all day wandering around trying to work out where they are...