More roads...

[AndrewRH]

I asked my MP about how the proposal affects cycling...

Cyclists are unlikely to be affected. There is no question of charging for existing roads; and any new toll roads are likely to be on routes not accessible to cyclists.
Best wishes, George Young

[Pete Owens]

We didn't pay for it. My point is though that if roads are needed they should be publicly built and available to everyone at no additional costs.

or socialism for motorists in other words.

Unlike food (which we are expected to pay for) driving is not a basic human need.
There is a demand for travel - just as there is for any other commodity, but unless you make a direct charge for use of road-space there really is no way of knowing how much people actually value that road space. And the evidence from the M6 toll road is that a "much needed" road turns out not to be in great demand at all. While drivers may moan about congestion round Birmingham very few mind sufficiently to stump up a fiver for the privilege of avoiding it. If the absurdly overinflated value that the DfT places on time saving for drivers was even remotely realistic then the road would be busy.

[snibgo]

Yup.

Not long ago, the government floated ambitious schemes for charging motorists on different roads different amounts at different times of day, saying it would modify drivers' behaviour -- they would avoid travelling when and where it was expensive.

So it should be no suprise to find that putting a toll on some roads has the same effect -- motorists avoid them.

[Si]

I used the M6 toll a couple of years ago. The traffic on it could have fitted comfortably in one lane.

Ah, you were on it during a major rush hour then.

As for whether we paid for it.....dunno if the govt gave money to the builders to get them going but in other ways we did very much pay for it: another six lanes of motorway cutting through the countryside of rural Britain, etc.

[NUKe]

So what would be people do if they were in Government. How do you create a transport system for Britain inthe 21 st century. Even if your anti car, roads are still a neccessary evil. No one wants new rail links, as proved by the amount of oppsition to thenew west coast line and to expect the Public to get on their bikes doesn't seem to work either, What is your suggestion to build transportation for the future. So what is the solution

[patricktaylor]

... roads are still a neccessary evil ...

If there were no roads there would be no freedom of movement except for public footpaths and other rights of way. In practical terms I don't mind a few extra pay-as-you-go roads if it means less congestion everywhere else but it's a matter of degree. A regime where you must pay money to be allowed to move would seem to contradict fundamental freedoms.

[Mick F]

Trouble with the M6 toll road, it doesn't go where most of the traffic wants to go. ie M5/M6 through West Brom. The toll road is on the wrong side of Birmingham.

[thirdcrank]

So what would be people do if they were in Government. How do you create a transport system for Britain inthe 21 st century. Even if your anti car, roads are still a neccessary evil. No one wants new rail links, as proved by the amount of oppsition to thenew west coast line and to expect the Public to get on their bikes doesn't seem to work either, What is your suggestion to build transportation for the future. So what is the solution

This only demonstrates that, as a society, we've not much logic about this. Roads, and to an even greater extent the vehicles that run on them, represent so much more than a transport system. Our hopes of prosperity seem to rest on making selling more and more cars and building more roads for them to run on. A motor car isn't just a way of getting around but it's a visible symbol of individual importance and it encourages people to spend their £££ rather than save it.

We try to ignore the problems this causes: death and injury; pollution; and wasteful use of land but this requires a big suspension of logic.

In the meantime, diesel is edging ever nearer to £1-50 a jug and we've still not recognised that this is because all those people in other parts of the world who have been sweating to keep us like pigs in whatever pigs like to roll in, have decided that they'd like to have cars too.

Cameron is looking for other sources of road funding because as Ozzy keeps telling us all, the country is broke. I suspect that just like the canals and railways before them, the motorways may be coming towards the end of their boom years.

[horizon]

So what would be people do if they were in Government. How do you create a transport system for Britain inthe 21 st century. Even if you're anti car, roads are still a neccessary evil. No one wants new rail links, as proved by the amount of oppsition to thenew west coast line and to expect the Public to get on their bikes doesn't seem to work either, What is your suggestion to build transportation for the future. So what is the solution

A transport system for the twentieth century must take into account the fact that human beings have changed significantly since the twentieth century. We need a modern transportation system that meets the needs of today's humans. Human beings now need to travel much more, much further and much more quickly these days and in greater comfort than they used to. We have no choice about roads - that much we know - they are essential to twenty first century humans. The need to get from Manchester to London in less than one hour somehow has to be met - how we do it remains to be seen but it must be high speed to meet current needs - modern man will accept nothing less. Perhaps we need a complete refresh of the system with a completely fresh new look to bring it up to 21st century standards. We are facing new challenges in a rapidly changing world. Maybe the new Reading station is the way to go: fresh, modern and meeting the needs of today's busy mums.

Just to be serious for a moment though, until we stop talking about roads and start talking about behaviour, pricing (road space is free except in London, yes free. Economists predict queues when things are free, called congestion in this case), why people travel, lobbying etc etc we are just building a bigger hole. It is soooo sad. Imagine you are a road engineer going to work every day and imagining that you are solving congestion and hey presto it pops up somehere else ... so sad.

[[XAP]Bob]

The solution is actually relatively simple, although political suicide.

We don't *need* to travel great distances. We have chosen to do, and built our country around the ability to do so.

reverse this trend. Move parliament away from London. Stop buliding more an more housing just outside walking distance of any ameneties.
Make towns impermeable to motorised traffic.
Nationalise public transport, and make it free at point of use, integrate it with itself and provide ample parking for non-cars.

[horizon]

The solution is actually relatively simple, although political suicide.

We don't *need* to travel great distances. We have chosen to do, and built our country around the ability to do so.

reverse this trend. Move parliament away from London. Stop buliding more an more housing just outside walking distance of any ameneties.
Make towns impermeable to motorised traffic.
Nationalise public transport, and make it free at point of use, integrate it with itself and provide ample parking for non-cars.

...or just allow them to queue. Do nothing - it will work. Or, pretend to do something (e.g. raise the speed limit) - that will work too.

[patricktaylor]

... or just allow them to queue. Do nothing - it will work ...

Not really. It assumes everyone has a choice whether or not to waste time sitting still. Some do, some don't, and some that do are presumably happy to waste someone else's money.

[horizon]

... or just allow them to queue. Do nothing - it will work ...

Not really. It assumes everyone has a choice whether or not to waste time sitting still. Some do, some don't, and some that do are presumably happy to waste someone else's money.

Queuing is the system we currently use, same as Soviet Union, ironically for a Tory government. It isn't very efficient but anyone who thinks increasing the amount of the product (be it bread or road space) without changing the pricing will solve the problem is in for a nasty shock (well they wouldn't be in for a shock if they examined the evidence of the last 90 years but then hey ho).

BTW, people do have a choice and they choose to queue. I rode from one side of London to the other one Friday evening recently in the rush hour. All bonkers, but they chose to queue. Why not just change your working hours (CAN'T), why not work from home on a Friday (CAN'T) etc etc

[karlt]

You speak as if you imagine that "can't" is just an excuse and not what employers have an annoying habit of actually saying.

[horizon]

You speak as if you imagine that "can't" is just an excuse and not what employers have an annoying habit of actually saying.

... and the solution is?