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Who to contact in CTC?

Posted: 16 Apr 2012, 9:09am
by ANTONISH
On the touring section there is a thread about pre-booking ferries on the Calais - Dover route. This has broadened to discuss cyclists being able to use specific ferries. For example DFDS have taken over some of the now defunct Sea France's ferries. Unlike Sea France they are not taking cyclists although they may in the furure. I want to contact CTC about this as I'm concerned specifically about cyclist access but also that a ferry company may be able to impose arbitrary resrictions on the travel of specific groups. DFDS do take cyclists on the Dover - Dunkerque route but not foot passengers (or coaches).
Some of the current CTC information is outdated e.g Sea France is still quoted as offering a CTC members discount.
Can soneone point me in the right direction for raising this?

Re: Who to contact in CTC?

Posted: 16 Apr 2012, 9:28am
by eileithyia
ctc national office; 08447368450 cycling@ctc.org.uk ?

Re: Who to contact in CTC?

Posted: 16 Apr 2012, 8:54pm
by JJF
Hello Ant.
Recently I approached CTC in the manner suggested by eileithyia and was put in touch with Andrew Hawes. I pointed out that cycles are not accepted on the Ramsgate-Ostend route. I thought that CTC would be willing to write to the ferry company and advocate the carrying of cycles. Inconclusive corres between me and CTC followed. It seemed that, in order for CTC to act, the matter had to be approved as a campaign by the campaigns committee. As far as I am aware nothing followed.

I agree with your concern about accessibility to ferry services and would join with you in pressing CTC to take an interest.

Re: Who to contact in CTC?

Posted: 17 Apr 2012, 9:24am
by ANTONISH
JJF wrote:Hello Ant.
Recently I approached CTC in the manner suggested by eileithyia and was put in touch with Andrew Hawes. I pointed out that cycles are not accepted on the Ramsgate-Ostend route. I thought that CTC would be willing to write to the ferry company and advocate the carrying of cycles. Inconclusive corres between me and CTC followed. It seemed that, in order for CTC to act, the matter had to be approved as a campaign by the campaigns committee. As far as I am aware nothing followed.

I agree with your concern about accessibility to ferry services and would join with you in pressing CTC to take an interest.


Yes JJF, if the CTC aren't going to take an interest who will? I'm not sure how to go about this- I suppose I could try my local CTC representaive first. I had forgotten about the Ramsgate -Ostend route although I was aware that they didn't take foot passengers.
Both Ramsgate and Ostend terminals are easily accessible by cycle and on foot, there doesn't seem to be anything but an arbitrary decision by the Ferry company - probably as a matter of convenience.
I think this is also of interest to prospective foot passengers. I'm also thinking of contacting my M.P - there doesn't seem to be any national policy on ferry access.

Re: Who to contact in CTC?

Posted: 17 Apr 2012, 2:33pm
by dave holladay
Andy alerted me to this thread.

I've had discussions with the Ramsgate-Oostende operator and the situation is likely to remain that cyclists and foot passengers won't be taken as individual passengers, but a small minibus or taxi can make the crossing and carry you between port entrance and berth and v.v at either end. This is especially a limiting detail at Oostende, where the distance you will need to ride is over 1Km through the freight marshalling apron area. Here are many HGV and tractor-tug movements of large trailers, presenting a high risk zone for cycling and with low demand for foot passenger and cycle use they claim that providing a shuttle bus (as at Dieppe and Newhaven), to carry these passengers to the berth is not a viable proposition and an added cost (for foot passengers) would be the provision of a Customs Building to process those coming in and out (of the UK).

The solution is to get a driver and an 8-seater to go on the ferry with you and your bikes - any bigger than an 8-seater will also be refused as coach parties have to come off the coach and use a Customs Hall. So for a low budget operation you need to have a minibus and driver to do a return trip (or dump the minibus with someone in Oostende) I am wondering if a car club or car hire company might consider having such vehicles for hire so that groups might co-ordinate sharing a hire, or you find someone who fancies a cheap trip to Oostende who will do the 2 trips for inbound and outbound. You might try an post the request on www.Liftshare.com as they already broker workplace lift-sharing and might like to look at a cross-channel version using Eurotunnel and the ferry routes, as a standard trip that many would like to lift share on.

The same detail applies to the Dover-Dunkerque route, as the facilities at Dunkerque are very simple - it deals only with vehicles and will not deal with vehicles carrying more than (I think) 8 people. Those on foot and parties in a coach need to go through a Customs Hall, and the operation would not be viable if they have to build something bigger than their current portacabins (unless of course there is an MEP in Dunkerque who can drum up support for a 'vanity' project that delivers coach parties to the town with a super but overspecified Customs facility, which might be too costly to sustainably operate). Dunkerque is actually quite a civilised port as the berths are very close to the town itself, most pleasantly the opposite of Calais, and to a lesser extent Dover.

That said there may be options for really low cost Eurostar tickets to Lille or le Frethun, as well as Brussel and Paris, especially if you can pack your bike down to it their carry-on bag size (120cm x 90cm x 30 cm) as many cycle tourists already do, as this avoids the £30 cost of registering to have the assembled bike transported (max length 2.0m). Packed to this size bikes can go on the High Speed services like Thalys/IC-E and TGV - you can be in the South of France in 6-7 hours this way

Regarding the DFDS routes - there was an apparent block on cycle and foot passenger bookings, but this was again driven commercially - they get more per passenger if the party brings on a car, and with less heavy freight they have car deck space available, allocating this a priority for every additional car deal they can sell. It does make cycle bookings a bit scarce at times, if passenger spaces are held back for car occupants.

Not sure about all of the ex Seafrance detail just yet - I'll need to check that one - once my CTC laptop resurfaces after repairs.

The next move - well there is always the Treaty of Rome and European Human Rights Law - namely the issue of being able to pass freely between member states. Thus the blocking of individuals who do not have access to private motor vehicles, is a significant limitation on a fundamental tenet of the EU, and with the Ports often controlled by or receiving support from Governments, there is a possible call on those Governments to ensure all ports with passenger ferry services have the facility for an individual to arrive under their own power on foot or on a bike and cross the border.

This isn't really something for CTC alone, especially with the major opportunities presented by the current road safety and promotion action coming from Central Government, but it may be usefully raised with MEP's, especially where ports and ferry services receive EU funding, and with those promoting sustainable tourism (you only need to see the effect on Dieppe when the cars head to & from the incoming ferry).

Be thankful that the Port of Dover has a better attitude on cycling and lets you ride from the port entrance to the berth with the trucks, cars and buses, and lets you do this for night sailings when they don't accept foot passengers, as the shuttle buses don't run to serve the overnight sailings. They have had a cyclist killed by a truck movement, but this was a staff member riding in a marshalling area rather than someone using the defined routes and they did not respond with a knee jerk ban on cycling - let's keep this one working, and try to persuade Ramsgate & Oostende that cycling to the berth is not a high risk issue. I'll cc this thread to ECF folk in Brussel in case there is a Belgian/French perspective they can apply to the issue.

Meantime - if there is a value in passenger numbers and revenue that can be shown let's try to build a case based on blunt financial benefit to the ferry operator - delivering passengers to the ferry but without the added costs of safe transfer or extra Customs facilities.

Re: Who to contact in CTC?

Posted: 17 Apr 2012, 3:39pm
by ANTONISH
Thank you for that very informative reply. It's a long time since I used the Ramsgate - Ostend route and then I used a car. I'm not sure how difficult it would be for cylists to use the Ostend terminal but I presume they would take the same route as the cars. Being Belgium I think it's very likely that some of the ferry terminal staff cycle to work.
BTW the Dunkerque end has a substantial two storey building which I think was originally used by Sally line. Thats one reason why it's better for cyclists as you can sit out of the weather and have a coffee while waiting to be called for the ferry.
The vehicle check in positions use portable cabins. I can't see a problem with custom control - after all Calais only has a customs hall for foot passengers.Border control is in similar portable cabins to Dunkerque.
The last time I went through on the Bike bus we stayed on the coach and the border control officer came on for a swift check to see that we all had passports.
This may seem a lot of fuss to make when it is still possible for a cyclist to take a ferry to either Dunkerque or Calais not to mention the twice a day tunnel shuttle service between Ashford and Calais.
What concerns me is that the decision to convey cyclists (and for that matter foot pasengers) seems to be a decision made solely by the ferry operator or port authority.
One can see their position but free movement across the channel should be a matter for government interest.
As I see it any ferry operator can decide not to carry non motor vehicle travellers on operational grounds.
It's nice to know that somone in CTC is taking an interest.

Re: Who to contact in CTC?

Posted: 17 Apr 2012, 4:46pm
by dave holladay
It probably is a matter that the government takes a great interest in, and the ease with which a pedestrian or cyclist can melt into the local environment makes it very handy to have them nicely boxed up in cars and buses when passing through border controls.

Re: Who to contact in CTC?

Posted: 17 Apr 2012, 4:51pm
by dave holladay
PS we did some useful work on getting groups booked in as groups with Brittany and P&O so that you can benefit from full cabin rates, and know that you can/could get a group on the Fleetwood-Belfast service.

Also worth checking out an increasing number of small high speed foot 7 cycle ferries including some very fast 12 seaters that do Troon to Campbeltown in just over an hour (pricey but quite thrilling - you have to wear seat belts and life jackets when on the voyage)

Re: Who to contact in CTC?

Posted: 18 Apr 2012, 4:57pm
by ANTONISH
dave holladay wrote:PS we did some useful work on getting groups booked in as groups with Brittany and P&O so that you can benefit from full cabin rates, and know that you can/could get a group on the Fleetwood-Belfast service.

Also worth checking out an increasing number of small high speed foot 7 cycle ferries including some very fast 12 seaters that do Troon to Campbeltown in just over an hour (pricey but quite thrilling - you have to wear seat belts and life jackets when on the voyage)

Thanks for that Dave. I'm sure that a ferry operator can be persuaded to take a large group - you could probably hire a ferry if the group was large enough. What I'm concerned about is the abilty of the individual- either cyclist or foot passenger to have access to the cross channel ferries.
I'm sure that Troon to Cambeltown is exciting but I have had a bit of experience of small ships in heavy weather and I'll pass. (I presume you get a bucket with your seatbelt.) :(
What I'm lacking here is any idea of the CTC policy on ferry travel. Such as do the CTC keep an active watch for any deterioration in access or service?. Is the CTC aware of the operating conditions imposed on the ferry operators in regard to passengers not using motor vehicles?
I'm afraid the website is lacking in this sort of information - and some of the information is out of date. Not much point in advertising a Sea France discount when Sea France has ceased to exist.

Re: Who to contact in CTC?

Posted: 18 Apr 2012, 5:56pm
by johnb
ANTONISH wrote:
dave holladay wrote:PS we did some useful work on getting groups booked in as groups with Brittany and P&O so that you can benefit from full cabin rates, and know that you can/could get a group on the Fleetwood-Belfast service.

Also worth checking out an increasing number of small high speed foot 7 cycle ferries including some very fast 12 seaters that do Troon to Campbeltown in just over an hour (pricey but quite thrilling - you have to wear seat belts and life jackets when on the voyage)

Thanks for that Dave. I'm sure that a ferry operator can be persuaded to take a large group - you could probably hire a ferry if the group was large enough. What I'm concerned about is the abilty of the individual- either cyclist or foot passenger to have access to the cross channel ferries.
I'm sure that Troon to Cambeltown is exciting but I have had a bit of experience of small ships in heavy weather and I'll pass. (I presume you get a bucket with your seatbelt.) :(
What I'm lacking here is any idea of the CTC policy on ferry travel. Such as do the CTC keep an active watch for any deterioration in access or service?. Is the CTC aware of the operating conditions imposed on the ferry operators in regard to passengers not using motor vehicles?
I'm afraid the website is lacking in this sort of information - and some of the information is out of date. Not much point in advertising a Sea France discount when Sea France has ceased to exist.



I think you will find CTC have done very little of late for the benefit of cycletourers, perhaps this new British Cycling initiative will be extended to include cycletourers.

Until then I think its up to ourselves to push our agenda as individuals.

Re: Who to contact in CTC?

Posted: 19 Apr 2012, 10:15am
by ANTONISH
[

I think you will find CTC have done very little of late for the benefit of cycletourers, perhaps this new British Cycling initiative will be extended to include cycletourers.

Until then I think its up to ourselves to push our agenda as individuals.
[/quote]
Sadly it appears you are right. This doesn't appear to be of any interest to the modern, thrusting, relevant CTC that seems intent on distancing itself from it's roots.
I'll continue to see what response I can get from CTC even if it,s only an admission that they are not interested (or words to that effect). Failing that I'll try my MP and MEP - I don't have much hope for support but I'd like to be informed about the actual passenger carrying requirements placed on ferry operators.

Re: Who to contact in CTC?

Posted: 19 Apr 2012, 11:17am
by dave holladay
The Green MEP (German) Michael Kramer and a Belgian counterpart have delivered a sustainable tourism bill as well as the Third Railway Package - where ECF co-ordinates to deliver a key requirement that we pushed hard to keep in the passengers' rights legislation - the provision to take cycles on trains on all EU operators' services but with the ability at present to ask for 5 year derogations at least twice. The AGM is not that far off - Sheffield in May, maybe still time to bring this up for debate

My role is currently more constrained as there is far less of a carte blanche to tackle every bike/PT issue. I'll do my best but with limited resources there is only so much that can be done. The key may be in showing how it costs nothing but potentially delivers more passengers or revenue, or does these for less cost. Contacts still exist though.

Re: Who to contact in CTC?

Posted: 19 Apr 2012, 11:50am
by johnb
dave holladay wrote:The Green MEP (German) Michael Kramer and a Belgian counterpart have delivered a sustainable tourism bill as well as the Third Railway Package - where ECF co-ordinates to deliver a key requirement that we pushed hard to keep in the passengers' rights legislation - the provision to take cycles on trains on all EU operators' services but with the ability at present to ask for 5 year derogations at least twice. The AGM is not that far off - Sheffield in May, maybe still time to bring this up for debate

My role is currently more constrained as there is far less of a carte blanche to tackle every bike/PT issue. I'll do my best but with limited resources there is only so much that can be done. The key may be in showing how it costs nothing but potentially delivers more passengers or revenue, or does these for less cost. Contacts still exist though.


Dave, thank you for your reply and your endeavours on issues such as this.

As matters such as this are/were core to the CTCs progression to being the largest cycling organisation for cycletourers I hope you don't mind if I ask you a few questions pertaining to this matter.

Are you employed on a full time basis by the CTC to carry out this type of work?

Do you have the staff, budget necessary to carry it out?

I until lately had not heard of the ECF and now with K Maines appointment as its top executive it seems to be rolled out as the answer to everything. Is this the party line that must be promoted now as a basis to shift blame/responsibility to Europe for lack of progress/work on the ground.

Re: Who to contact in CTC?

Posted: 20 Apr 2012, 5:53pm
by ANTONISH
Yes thak you for that Dave. I realise I come over as a curmudgeonly old git at times.
Looking back over fifty years I remember when it was possible to put a bike on a train at pretty well any time - due of course to trains having luggage vans. It wasn't free and a ticket had to be purchased for the bike but it was a reasonable system.
At that time one could take a train to a number of channel ports which had harbour stations where the train would be only a short distance to the ferry. At the other side the same was in place and one could take a train to various continental destinations. Of course then the majority of travellers were foot passengers. It was easy for a cyclist just wanting to use the ferry to do so.
We have lost a great deal since those days.
My concern is that we don't see a deterioration in the present situation. As I've already said if P&O decided they didn't want non motor vehicle travellers the effect would be severe. I'm unaware of the legal requirements placed on ferry operators in this regard and I was hoping that CTC would have this information and be prepared to act if there were any proposed deterioration in service.
I'm not sure how I would go about putting a proposal at the AGM. I'm still unaware of the official position of CTC in this. The website doesn't give me confidence. It would be a sad situation if the only way to or from this Island for cyclists/foot passengers was by air or eurostar.
If ECF are pressing for cyclist access to european trains I think it would be very reasonable to include ferry travel in this.
Two periods of five year derogation though doesn't look good.