Cycling UK Forum

531colin wrote:

Ambler wrote:................If you illustrated this with flat bars as well I am sure you would sell more.
(just changed the drops to flats on the S Galaxy I bought from you - heaven!)

We have a demo bike in the tourers with flat bars....hardly ever sell one. Flat bar users are a higher percentage on this forum than in Spa customers?

There's absolutely no reason why drop bars cannot be as comfortable as flat bars. In fact, more so over the distance. Just get the height up and (just) maybe reduce the reach.

531colin wrote:...as an expedition bike it wants 26" wheels and a stiff cromo frame...

Just an aside for a moment (OK, OK, I am hijacking again), are you saying that stiff is preferable for an expedition bike? Is that for luggage support, or just as a by-product of the strength required for such a purpose? (Figuring I may to get a mental eraser out for the custom titanium dream bike I've been building in my head).

And your bike suggestion stumps me a bit. Different type of bike to what the OP's asking for I can almost understand, but more than double the price?!? Why that one? Rather surprised me Colin, you usually come across as a realistic sort.

* * * On another matter * * *

And to join the flat vs drops discussion, I'd make the point that multiple positions is all very well, but you have to be rather, erm, special, to think they're ideal for most people off road. Yeah, you can get woodchippers and the like, but for ease of use and practicality in that situation, flats make far more sense, especially in the KISS mindset. I am planning a swap to flats (well, probably butterflies, hmmm, sounds girly... perhaps I should call them Papillon, or Mariposa?), as I have posted elsewhere, partially because I am a fatty who doesn't like bending unecessarily, but also because I don't feel entirely confident at all times with them, particularly downhill.

I've done loads of tours and have eventually evolved towards what you want, driven by a combination of comfort and practicality.

My main touring bike is a Thorn Raven Tour which is a 26inch wheel bike which I have with bullhorn bars (even better than flats with extensions and way more comfortable all day than drops), a Rohloff hub (stronger wheel and more convenient, but not necessary) with good tyre clearance, V-brakes with Rigida Andra rims (which show no discernible wear after 10,000 miles), mudguards etc.
Now such a bike is not within your financial compass, but my second current touring bike is a modified Giant GT, front suspension which you can turn off, mudguards which I've put on with zipties, and a higher shorter stem than standard, again with bullhorn bars. You could do this with any cheap unsuspended MTB. This one has disk brakes, but I think that V's are a more reliable solution.

mrjemm wrote:

531colin wrote:...as an expedition bike it wants 26" wheels and a stiff cromo frame...

Just an aside for a moment (OK, OK, I am hijacking again), are you saying that stiff is preferable for an expedition bike? Is that for luggage support, or just as a by-product of the strength required for such a purpose? (Figuring I may to get a mental eraser out for the custom titanium dream bike I've been building in my head).

And your bike suggestion stumps me a bit. Different type of bike to what the OP's asking for I can almost understand, but more than double the price?!? Why that one? Rather surprised me Colin, you usually come across as a realistic sort.

* * * On another matter * * *

And to join the flat vs drops discussion, I'd make the point that multiple positions is all very well, but you have to be rather, erm, special, to think they're ideal for most people off road. Yeah, you can get woodchippers and the like, but for ease of use and practicality in that situation, flats make far more sense, especially in the KISS mindset. I am planning a swap to flats (well, probably butterflies, hmmm, sounds girly... perhaps I should call them Papillon, or Mariposa?), as I have posted elsewhere, partially because I am a fatty who doesn't like bending unecessarily, but also because I don't feel entirely confident at all times with them, particularly downhill.

Stiff for luggage, yes. So you don't get the tail wagging the dog as can happen with over-light frames over-loaded. (Stiff as in Surlys famous Trucker)Titanium is by nature springy, and you get a comfortable ride. (Stand by for the cries of "Hokus pokus" from people who ride 2" tyres and suspension forks on tarmac.) There is also the thought that steel might be more repairable locally in the event of an accident.

As to price, I was responding to the challenge that this type of bike simply isn't made by anybody, anywhere. And our Titanium is cheap compared to Thorn's steel.
But the design works whatever the material.

You and Gearoid. have an opinion on drop bars, and you both state your opinion as fact, ie drop bars are uncomfortable. (or bar "X" is better)
I have tried bullbars at both road and mountain width, and I have gone back to drops.
Look at Gearoid's bike. My brake lever hoods are where his treehooks are. So my brakes are where I ride most of the time, and where I have most control; on Gearoid's bike I would have to move my hands back and in to brake, which is not ideal off road. Flat bar brake levers you grip, and so grip the bar harder....not ideal on a rough descent on rigid forks. I brake from the hoods, so the bars can (and do!) bounce under my hands. BTW, I'm 65 in June, and arthritis in my hands has stopped me building wheels....I have no special powers. There is a monster thread somewhere about "drops or flats for touring" or some such, which explored all sorts of options.
As for KISS, my avatar is the mount I'm working on to get downtube or bar end levers where I want them....next to the hoods.

531colin wrote:

Ambler wrote:................If you illustrated this with flat bars as well I am sure you would sell more.
(just changed the drops to flats on the S Galaxy I bought from you - heaven!)

We have a demo bike in the tourers with flat bars....hardly ever sell one. Flat bar users are a higher percentage on this forum than in Spa customers?

I wasn't show this when I came over last year. No, I am not complaining, as, after reading many threads on here re. touring bikes I wanted to give drops a go. They are not for me, but I understand will suit many.

Just bought one of these to build a 26 inch tourer. A Dahon Espresso folding frame comes with rigid fork headset and BB.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dahon-Medium- ... 20c4de5f9f
a bargain at 110 pounds
I intend to use it as the basis for 26 inch wheeled tourer. I've ordered a new set of hand built wheels with a dyno hub for 85 pounds from Rose in Germany most other stuff I have in stock.

of course if its not shown, we won't sell many flat bar bikes.
For mass production, options for different bars or whatever will drive up the price.

Ash28 wrote:http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_810603_langId_-1_categoryId_165534

good spot; I notice what look like low-rider bosses too which I dont remember seeing before.

cheers

If you are on a low budget there is defiantly some merit in finding an old steel mountain bike frame and using it as a basis for building the bike you want.
My bike here in the picture started out as a Trek820 mountain bike that I picked up in the mid 90’s, over the years as components have been replaced through natural wear it has morphed into quite a nice 26” tourer and all-round useful bike.
Have a look at ebay for some of the components that you will need, if your happy to use 7/8 speed stuff prices can be very good.

Thank you for answering thoroughly Colin. I get what you're saying about stiffness. Not quite so sure about the price part of your answer; are you confirming Horizon's claim that these bikes are not made? Which is probably true, agreed, if that's the case.

As for the next part-

531colin wrote:You and Gearoid. have an opinion on drop bars, and you both state your opinion as fact, ie drop bars are uncomfortable. (or bar "X" is better)
I have tried bullbars at both road and mountain width, and I have gone back to drops.
Look at Gearoid's bike. My brake lever hoods are where his treehooks are. So my brakes are where I ride most of the time, and where I have most control; on Gearoid's bike I would have to move my hands back and in to brake, which is not ideal off road. Flat bar brake levers you grip, and so grip the bar harder....not ideal on a rough descent on rigid forks. I brake from the hoods, so the bars can (and do!) bounce under my hands. BTW, I'm 65 in June, and arthritis in my hands has stopped me building wheels....I have no special powers. There is a monster thread somewhere about "drops or flats for touring" or some such, which explored all sorts of options.
As for KISS, my avatar is the mount I'm working on to get downtube or bar end levers where I want them....next to the hoods.

Firstly I'll add the disclaimer that everything I say is an opinion, not fact, and my experience is infinitesimal compared to many, if not most here; I apologise if I come across as having ideas above my station! It is all subjective, and yes indeed there are numerous threads about drops and other types, what I refer to is still only opinion. I agree with what you say about brake position- note my thread about my bar swap; the levers on butterflies are typically in a similar location to Geroid's and I wish to set up instead with levers on the outside where I'd likely ride most from, and gain maximum leverage. And also not have to grip my brakes with all fingers and just "grab a handful" (remember I have discs and don't need super strength to lock up if needs be). Perhaps I worded my last sentence wrongly; it was supposed to show my reasoning for swapping is as much for my personal example of bodyform and preferences as views on simplicity etc.

It's all a learning process for me, and I express myself rather too forthrightly probably. Cheers, Jem.

Forthright....yeah, put my hand up for that, too.

I don't think theres anything around in the way of ready-made roughstuff tourers at the £500-£600 price point.
My point is the design works just as well mass produced in steel as individually made in titanium (except maybe individually we can offer choices of handlebars, etc )
but its not a big seller, so its not the obvious place to start producing steel bikes. (that would be Audax bikes, which outsell the tourers by a margin)

531colin wrote:[
As to price, I was responding to the challenge that this type of bike simply isn't made by anybody, anywhere. And our Titanium is cheap compared to Thorn's steel.
But the design works whatever the material.

I've added a post above to correct that - they are made but not at the price the OP wants - hence the suggestion that many have made that he goes second hand MTB/self build which is a good one. My main point is that I think there is a valid range of price points for this type of bike around £600 - £1100, a 26" version of the mid range tourers by Dawes, EBC and Ridgeback (as indeed Dawes have done with their Nomad). In fact even a straightforward second hand purchase isn't possible as this type of bike comes up so rarely. Why I write passionately about this is that this type of bike takes you into a different league of travel because of its ability to both do distance and do off road with luggage. A good 700c tourer will do most of it too, but 26" wheels, lower gears and good clearance edge things along even further.

After reading some posts here, I've just been having a look around at ebay's steel frames, and there really are some tempters! Even a Thorn frame, though it's up to 13 bids. Nice Konas, Oranges and Konas have caught my eye, and I'd imagine great for a project like this. I must tear myself away before I get carried away.

horizon wrote:.............. Why I write passionately about this is that this type of bike takes you into a different league of travel because of its ability to both do distance and do off road with luggage. A good 700c tourer will do most of it too, but 26" wheels, lower gears and good clearance edge things along even further.

Me too. I can head North from here through the Yorkshire Dales, up Teesdale, over High cup Nick, to the Lakes, High Street, back via Howgills or Salter Fell




.....Keld, Swaledale



...........High Cup Nick. North Pennines

But its a minority sport, sadly. And the MTB fashion for 700c wheels has merit