Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

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Brucey
Posts: 32321
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Brucey » 16 Jan 2019, 1:25pm

for some reason I can't see all your photos properly but #21 fits over two protrusions that are part of the shift control mechanism. They poke up just above the cone ( I think can see them in the third photo), but only if the cone is properly seated. IIRC seating the cone correctly is non-trivial; it is meant to be a tight fit on the axle and the parts that engage are small and there is potential for damage to them.

#21 is meant to turn. The lock washer #22 is meant not to turn. It therefore makes no sense whatsoever to fit #21 over protrusions in #22.

The protrusions in #22 are there to bear the axial load (once the locknut is tightened) against the cone and to hold it all in position.

There are of course an almost infinite number of ways of assembling the parts wrongly but (assuming #21 is the right way up) in this case there are only three, two of which make no sense at all; one where #21 doesn't engage with anything, another where it engages with a static part (#22) and the third correct one whereby it engages with the shift control mechanism as it should do.

Any tiny burr or piece of crud underneath the cone and it will never seat correctly. If this happens the shift control mechanism doesn't protrude enough above the cone, and #21 will never make a reliable connection to the shift control mechanism. Worse yet if you try and use the hub in that condition, it is possible for the shift control mechanism to start coming apart (as mentioned a few posts above) such that it won't allow the cone to seat properly. A symptom of this is that when the cone is well down and the locknut tightened, the shift control mechanism will be jammed and won't turn any more.

I suppose that there may be some other problem but I can't discount the possibility that the shift control mechanism is now in need of attention (e.g. either because it is coming apart or because there is a piece of debris jammed in it), and no amount of fiddling with the parts external to that will fix it. As mentioned upthread Shimano don't issue instructions for dismantling the shift control mechanism but may have had that in mind originally; IIRC some of the 'special tools' help with these tasks (which is why they are of no benefit otherwise). I don't advise that you tackle the shift control mechanism (certainly not without being sure that it is at fault, probably not at all in fact); it is a good deal more complicated than the parts you have tackled thus far, there are many more ways of getting it wrong, there are spring loaded parts that dislodge themselves, and it isn't at all clear when you first look at it how it works. It is similar to the 8s version and there are instructions on the web for this. Even those are not clear; it is very fiddly work.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Winfried
Posts: 79
Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 1:46pm
Location: Paris, France

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Winfried » 21 Jan 2019, 12:07pm

Thank you very much for your help.

I prefered to wait a few days to make sure… and I can confirm that things are back to normal. I now have my silent bike back :D

Lessons learned:
1. As I feared, even such a trivial operation can turn into a small nightmare if you're not used to working with IGH's. Make sure you have another bike handy to get around just in case… I only went ahead because there was obviously something wrong with the Alfine and I couldn't bear that cracking noise any longer… and very few LBS over here are willing and able to work on an IGH

2. Make sure each part…
a. goes in the right order (check the PDF; take pictures/video at each step; lay parts on the table in the order they were removed)
b. is on the right side (up/down*)
c. is at the right angle per the hub axle**

3. Using a 17mm cone spanner, make sure the "Serated Lock Nut" (part 25) is tightened just right, so that the cassette joint works as it used to: I could only get the CJ to sit and work right after tightening it with the spanner and not too tight at that.

4. Expect the ball bearing cage to wear/break — FWIW, I must have done ~ 10-15,000km at this point.

A few more questions:
1. Could you tell me exactly how to open the Alfine to replace its three ball bearings*** with just the TL-AF10 "Right Hand Dust Cap A Installation Tool" and avoid buying the TL-S701,TL-S702, and TL-S704? I already own the TL-S700, and will use some EP gear oil in the future instead of ATF.

2. While I'm at it, are there other parts that can wear and I should replace if/when I open the Alfine?

3. Since the original Alfine 11 (SG-S700) is no longer available for purchase, and has been replaced with the improv€d SG-S7000-11… are the hubs compatible, ie. can I just remove the innards and shove the new one into the existing hub and avoid building a new wheel?

Thank you.

* eg. part 21 "Drive Plate Seal" must have its dots showing on top
Image

** eg. part 21 and 22
Image
Source viewtopic.php?t=88136

***
13 Y37R98050 Ball Retainer S (3/16" x 26)
18 Y34R98070 Ball Retainer P (3/16" x 13)
36 Y36U98030 Ball Retainer (7/32" x 9)

Brucey
Posts: 32321
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Brucey » 21 Jan 2019, 2:33pm

glad you have got it sorted out now!

FWIW the other bearings are easier to change; undo one circlip from the LH end of the internal and the planet gear assemblies just slide off, allowing you to change the main ring bearing.

I think (because the changes should not affect the fit per se) the previous generation of internal and the current one go into the same hubshells, but I have not tried it myself.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Macadam
Posts: 7
Joined: 3 Sep 2018, 12:38pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Macadam » 25 Jan 2019, 6:03am

Winfried wrote:3. Since the original Alfine 11 (SG-S700) is no longer available for purchase, and has been replaced with the improv€d SG-S7000-11… are the hubs compatible, ie. can I just remove the innards and shove the new one into the existing hub and avoid building a new wheel?


Hello Winfried,

There's a few parts which were improved and don't match with the old version, but the hubshell seems the same between the two versions. Therefore it's possible in theory. See the messages in the last pages with all the parts which change and the differences.
I ask the question to Rofan to find a distributor (Germany) and I wait the answer.
However, I think it will cost higher to buy these new parts (or all the new mecanism) to put them in the old hubshell instead of buy a new hub SG-S7001-11.

Macadam

meandros
Posts: 21
Joined: 1 Jan 2018, 7:34pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby meandros » 26 Jan 2019, 4:18pm

Macadam wrote:I ask the question to Rofan to find a distributor (Germany) and I wait the answer.
However, I think it will cost higher to buy these new parts (or all the new mecanism) to put them in the old hubshell instead of buy a new hub SG-S7001-11.


As far as I can tell from ordering various IGH parts, the german distributor for shimano is paul-lange.de. They usually have better prices than sjscycles.

Macadam
Posts: 7
Joined: 3 Sep 2018, 12:38pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Macadam » 26 Jan 2019, 8:15pm

Thank you Meandros.
I know SJS Cycles in UK but they don't sell the new parts (SG-S7001-11 version) in order to improve an old hub.

Macadam

Winfried
Posts: 79
Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 1:46pm
Location: Paris, France

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Winfried » 14 Feb 2019, 9:48am

The creaking/cracking noises when spinning are back :-/

Here's what it sounds like when spinning in gear 5 (Silent when coasting; The issue occurs in all eleven gears):

https://instaud.io/3iLg

Yesterday, I tried unsuccessfully to 1. access the LHS ball bearing (looks like I need an extra tool) and 2. remove the Gates sprocket on the RHS with a flat screwdriver per the Youtube video (a part is slightly in the way, as shown).

Have you guys experienced those noises from a worn Alfine 11 (it's four and a half years; bike kept inhouse at night)?

Thank you.

IMG_20190213_172947.jpg

IMG_20190213_174411.jpg

Brucey
Posts: 32321
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Brucey » 14 Feb 2019, 12:00pm

that sprocket looks like a different design to ones I have seen; there are three extra 'fingers' which may be sprung to hold the sprocket more concentrically (I can't see why they are there/shaped as they are otherwise) and these may obstruct the sprocket when it is being removed.

One of the common problems with belt drive sprockets is that they work loose on the driver and 'orbit' the driver because (unlike a chain) the belt tension is nearly always higher than the force required to cause the sprocket to move off-centre. It may be movement of this type that has motivated the design of that sprocket and it is by no means certain that the design change has worked in the way intended. There is normally a snap-ring that retains the sprocket; presumably you removed this before you took the photo?

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Winfried
Posts: 79
Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 1:46pm
Location: Paris, France

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Winfried » 14 Feb 2019, 12:12pm

Yes, I removed the snap ring… and then got stuck because the sprocket wouldn't move with a screwdriver because that part won't let it.

AFAICT, it's a CDC sprocket, the middle range between the entry-level CDN and the higher-level CDX.

I e-mailed Gates for advice.

I can't wait to see what the Alfine core looks like, and possibly understand what is causing that creaking noise.

Brucey
Posts: 32321
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Brucey » 14 Feb 2019, 12:20pm

you may need to pry all three sprocket arms (at the same time) in order to release the sprocket. Maybe with both hands you could squeeze the handles of three screwdrivers together whilst someone else pushes the sprocket upwards?

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Winfried
Posts: 79
Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 1:46pm
Location: Paris, France

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Winfried » 14 Feb 2019, 12:44pm

I'll report what Gates says if/when I get a reply.

Hopefully, I won't be told to shell out €75 to get their specific tool :-/

Image
https://shop.carbondrive.net/shop/tools ... -tool.html

Winfried
Posts: 79
Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 1:46pm
Location: Paris, France

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Winfried » 14 Feb 2019, 1:22pm

As for the LHS: Why didn't the core come out after I removed the nut + cone?

What tool is required to pull the "Seal Ring L" (part 35) that's sitting on top of the ball bearing?

IMG_20190213_172947.jpg

buffet
Posts: 15
Joined: 3 Jan 2019, 6:00pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby buffet » 14 Feb 2019, 1:33pm

You may want to check this video on sprocket removal:

https://youtu.be/hcqjuj3xfo0?t=393

It’s the A11 + belt drive.

P.s. are you sure that your belt is not overtightened? I’ve seen several bike with overtightened belts sold at the shops. Hell, my Cannondale Bad Boy was sold to me with its belt overtightened
Last edited by buffet on 14 Feb 2019, 1:38pm, edited 1 time in total.

Brucey
Posts: 32321
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Brucey » 14 Feb 2019, 1:36pm

Winfried wrote:
What tool is required to pull the "Seal Ring L" (part 35) that's sitting on top of the ball bearing?



A8 and A11 hubs use a left-threaded screw-in RH dustcap. This means that (unlike N8 hubs) the internal won't just slide out when the LH cone is removed.

The correct tool is indicated in the EV techdoc.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Winfried
Posts: 79
Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 1:46pm
Location: Paris, France

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Postby Winfried » 14 Feb 2019, 2:27pm

Thanks much for the infos.

I always made sure the belt isn't overtightened because I read that it can indeed trigger creaking noise in an IGH.

To remove the Gates sprocket, I simply had to apply a bit more force; I was overly cautious:

DSCN8744.JPG


Since putting the sprocket back in place, I notice less creaking. I'll take the bike for a spin and report back.

1. Removing the snap ring with two flat screwdrivers is a bit of a PITA, and could be dangerous: Do you guys use some kind of plier?

2. Do you mean that no work is needed on the LHS, and removing the internal requires using the "TL-AF10 Right Hand Dust Cap A Installation Tool"? Or do you mean the "Shimano TL-AF30 Left Hand Inner Dust Cap Installation Tool"?
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tools/shima ... y70811000/

Image