Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

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dslippy
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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby dslippy » 9 Sep 2012, 1:35pm

This is a fascinating topic.

I agree with a few things.
The OP should take down his video, take it to a specialist solicitor and be given, for free, and proper answer as to liability, and any possible claim. It just is not sensible to approach it in this way.

Aside from any possibility that the cam has speeded it all up, the cyclists own speeds appear to border on reckless.

Cycle lane behaviour?
There does appear to be a lacuna.
Buses in bus lanes are not expected not to undertake. Driver+1 lanes (M62 as was) are created explicitly to promote undertaking. I just await convincing that anyone has properly thought through what disciplines should apply in a cycle lane. I would think it proper to pass the vehicles outside me, but would never have the confidence in their reliability to pass at those speeds, and would doubt that anyone with such confidence will be rewarded for it.

Whoever created that cycle lane should be . . ashamed. It isn't safe. It almost invites derring do.

Not being safe, the OP was bananas to treat it as a highway to heaven. It relies on expectations of the other motorists which are simply unrealistic.

A fuller and professional analysis of the video might establish by calculation the extent to which the driver of the lorry may or may not have seen the OP, but he appears to have raced twenty tons of steel into a tightening of the road.

dalifnei
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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby dalifnei » 9 Sep 2012, 3:33pm

I have given my proper answer as to liability :)

dalifnei
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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby dalifnei » 9 Sep 2012, 10:16pm

dslippy wrote:...
Cycle lane behaviour?
...
Buses in bus lanes are not expected not to undertake. Driver+1 lanes (M62 as was) are created explicitly to promote undertaking. I just await convincing that anyone has properly thought through what disciplines should apply in a cycle lane. I would think it proper to pass the vehicles outside me, but would never have the confidence in their reliability to pass at those speeds, and would doubt that anyone with such confidence will be rewarded for it.


The courts have taken the view that the same rules apply as for cars: passing on the left has been regarded as "undertaking" and liability attached to the cyclist accordingly.

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meic
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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby meic » 9 Sep 2012, 11:49pm

However passing on the left when in separate marked lanes with unbroken white lines is not classed as undertaking is it?
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dalifnei
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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby dalifnei » 10 Sep 2012, 12:59am

yes

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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby Vorpal » 10 Sep 2012, 5:48am

meic wrote:However passing on the left when in separate marked lanes with unbroken white lines is not classed as undertaking is it?

dalifnei wrote:yes

Even when the cycle lane feeds an ASL?

What responsibility is attached to a local authority, or the Highways Agency when they install lanes that encourage the practice of undertaking?
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irc
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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby irc » 10 Sep 2012, 6:02am

dalifnei wrote:The courts have taken the view that the same rules apply as for cars: passing on the left has been regarded as "undertaking" and liability attached to the cyclist accordingly.


Any examples of this so we can see the circumstances?
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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby irc » 10 Sep 2012, 6:04am

dalifnei wrote:The courts have taken the vi


Any examples of this so we can see the circumstances? Makes cycle lanes a bit pointless if the cyclist is automatically at fault in a collision. Though cycle lane or not I would only overtake on the left with caution and not in all circumstances.
No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?

kwackers
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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby kwackers » 10 Sep 2012, 6:55am

What constitutes undertaking from a liability point of view? If you're cycling along in a cycle lane being passed by vehicles to your right and then they slow down and you don't surely that's not undertaking from a liability pov? After all it's not considered such on normal multi-lane roads.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby [XAP]Bob » 10 Sep 2012, 8:01am

A cycle lane is another lane, and therefore passing vehicles in a slower moving line of traffic is acceptable.

If you dodge down to overtake a single vehicle then that might be different, but continuing in the left lane is not undertaking - there are various places in the HC where it describes overtaking on the left as a reasonable procedure.
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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby thirdcrank » 10 Sep 2012, 9:21am

Bearing in mind that the cycle lane (ie on-carriageway) had turned into a cycle track (ie off-carriageway) before both the undertake and the overtake when the collision occurred, I'd be particularly interested to know how a judge might interpret the Highway Code:-

61
Cycle Routes and Other Facilities. Use cycle routes, advanced stop lines, cycle boxes and toucan crossings unless at the time it is unsafe to do so. Use of these facilities is not compulsory and will depend on your experience and skills, but they can make your journey safer.


We won't find out from this collision because it's not serious enough to merit a visit to the High Court.

dalifnei
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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby dalifnei » 10 Sep 2012, 10:22am

Fairly recent Court of Appeal decision Clenshaw v Tanner upheld the first instance view which considered passing a moving line of traffic to be undertaking:

When overtaking the vehicles on his left, the Claimant was obliged to
exercise particular care. A party should not overtake, as is said in
paragraph 106 of the Highway Code, where they might come into contact
with other users such as in this particular case.


(In this case a lorry turned left across the cycle lane and a collision occurered, badly injuring the cyclist, who was travelling with his head down and did not see the indicators which had been on for some time). I note however that each case is highly fact specific.

On reflection I have some difficulties with this when viewed as a standalone principle. If a cyclist is passing traffic then (unless the cyclist is zoooming) the traffic is likely to be slow moving traffic in lanes, in which case I would argue it is not undertaking. Also over a number of decisions it has been made very clear that filtering is permitted.

On balance the view I form about undertaking is this: you can do so, but if there is a vehicle ahead of you indicating left, claiming 'right of way' and undertaking it on the left will be at your peril. That vehicle has a duty to give way if it has to cross a cycle lane and will be found primarily liable, but you may face criticism also.

dalifnei
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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby dalifnei » 10 Sep 2012, 1:35pm

Also worth having a look at the British Cycling "Effective Traffic Riding", which says

Filtering up the left hand side of high-sided vehicles is almost a complete NO, unless the rider is absolutely sure that the HGV or bus isn’t going to move before they can get beyond the cab, out of the driver’s blind-spot and back into their field of vision.


http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/travel/article/trav20111121-travel-Effective-Traffic-Riding-Part-2---Filtering-0

dalifnei
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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby dalifnei » 10 Sep 2012, 1:36pm

Sorry, and the rest:

The best advice is to only do this if, for example, the high-sided vehicle is stopped at traffic lights which have just turned red, and the cyclist is familiar with the light sequence and knows for certain that they have plenty of time.

However, in spite of this advice, if a rider does misjudge the situation and finds her/himself alongside a bus or HGV starting to pull away, they must not hang back, which might seem like the intuitive thing to do, rather, pedal really fast to get to the front and back into the line of sight. You might well incur the driver’s wrath, but at least you’ll be alive to hear the expletives! Remember, drivers often turn left without indicating.

dslippy
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Re: Please look at the video of a Lorry knocking me off.

Postby dslippy » 10 Sep 2012, 5:08pm

The best advice is to only do this if, for example, the high-sided vehicle is stopped at traffic lights which have just turned red, and the cyclist is familiar with the light sequence and knows for certain that they have plenty of time.

However, in spite of this advice, if a rider does misjudge the situation and finds her/himself alongside a bus or HGV starting to pull away, they must not hang back, which might seem like the intuitive thing to do, rather, pedal really fast to get to the front and back into the line of sight. You might well incur the driver’s wrath, but at least you’ll be alive to hear the expletives! Remember, drivers often turn left without indicating.


You are best doing what is necessary to avoid the situation in the first place, but if you really are in that position, you may (if circs make it sensible) be better rolling back so as to allow the damn thing to move ahead and in whatever direction it intends.

Racing it forwards looks potentially suicidal.
What is possible depends on many factors - just how far along the inside you are, and the length of the lorry (how much will the middle of the damn thing come over as he turns left, and what street space/furniture there is to your left.