Rudge 'Bi-Frame' -a 'Proper' Folding Bike....?

For discussions about bikes and equipment.
Brucey
Posts: 44517
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Rudge 'Bi-Frame' -a 'Proper' Folding Bike....?

Post by Brucey »

those shifters look pretty nasty but they may serve a purpose. The FSA FD looks like a 'road' FD so it may not reach out over a triple chainset. Still it isn't going to be a very expensive experiment.

FWIW I bought one of these

Image
I think this is a Sachs 'Centera' model

a while back when CRC were selling off old stock; it is an 'old' (6/7/8s) style MTB/touring mech, so is designed for a triple with a MTB chainline and a big ring size in the 46-48T range, and uses bottom pull; such mechs are comparatively rare in braze-on format, despite being listed by most manufacturers. This one will (if necessary, with a small tweak) manage something close to a 'road' chainline too. I have no idea if it is compatible with any indexed shifters or not (and I'd expect that to vary with chainline anyway). It does however fit on my BiFrame and work very well. Needless to say CRC have no stock left now, but it is an example of what fits and works OK.

edit; I think this is the Sachs Centera groupset from which the FD comes, circa 1995-1997 (although the FD shown is top pull format)

Image

The RD is rather odd; it looks like it has a bit missing! And the chainring teeth look worn out before you start.... :shock:

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DevonDamo
Posts: 1036
Joined: 24 May 2011, 1:42am

Re: Rudge 'Bi-Frame' -a 'Proper' Folding Bike....?

Post by DevonDamo »

Brucey wrote:The FSA FD looks like a 'road' FD so it may not reach out over a triple chainset.


Thanks Brucey - the Sachs groupset does look a lot like the Suntour kit on the Bi-Frame, in terms of weird 80s styling. I had a look for one of their front derailleurs on eBay but couldn't find that exact model. The cheapest FD I could find that looked like it had a fighting chance of coping with a triple chainset was a Shimano 2300:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Shimano-2300-Front-Derailleur-Braze-on-mech-Triple-chainset-Road-Bike/133525831096?hash=item1f16c27db8:g:XkEAAOSwaEhfaPq6

It's supposed to cope with up to a 52 chainring. As far as the clamping angle is concerned, I'm not sure how Shimano measure this, but their specification sheet says something about a chainstay angle of 61 to 66 degrees. I might just buy that one and take a chance.
Brucey
Posts: 44517
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Rudge 'Bi-Frame' -a 'Proper' Folding Bike....?

Post by Brucey »

the 61-66 degree angle is the chainstay angle, i.e. the angle between the seat tube (in a normal frame) and the chainstay. This is not easy to compare with a BiFrame because of the way the seat tube is done, but since the chainstays are near-horizontal on 26" wheeled MTB-esque things the chaisntay angle usually comes out close to the seat tube angle. 61-66 degrees is a typical angle for a 700C wheeled road bike with a lowish BB. 65-70 degrees is the usual range for a 26" wheeled MTB-like thing. In practice it doesn't really matter what this angle is, except for two things;

1) if affects the capacity of the FD and
2) it affects the chances of the FD hitting the chainstay.

So FD-2300 might work for you but the capacities won't be quite right and it also may not reach out far enough to manage a MTB chainline triple (which is usually about 3mm wider than a road triple).

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DevonDamo
Posts: 1036
Joined: 24 May 2011, 1:42am

Re: Rudge 'Bi-Frame' -a 'Proper' Folding Bike....?

Post by DevonDamo »

Brucey wrote:So FD-2300 might work for you but the capacities won't be quite right and it also may not reach out far enough to manage a MTB chainline triple (which is usually about 3mm wider than a road triple).


Okay - thanks: it was worth checking-in here before rushing out and buying anything. My tacky Chinese thumb shifters aren't due to arrive for at least another month, so I'll keep an eye on ebay for a braze-on front mech designed for an MTB triple.
DevonDamo
Posts: 1036
Joined: 24 May 2011, 1:42am

Re: Rudge 'Bi-Frame' -a 'Proper' Folding Bike....?

Post by DevonDamo »

I read through this entire thread, and no-one has actually mentioned using these things off-road... Having restored my new large-framed model, I've ended up with two sets of wheels so now I can quickly swap between off-road and on-road configuration. I just got back from a test ride on one of my local mountain bike trails, which is reasonably steep and technical in places. Obviously, an old bike with no suspension and ancient tyres is not going to set any records, but it was really good fun - very nimble, surprisingly good brakes and it all felt rigid and composed. If you could get dropper posts to fit 26.6 seat tubes, I think I'd actually buy a set of decent tyres and start doing some 1980s-style mountain biking a bit more regularly.

By the way - I'm now left with a spare small frame for one of these - as described and pictured on p7 of this thread. If anyone know any smaller riders who'd be interested in building it up as a project, I'd flog it for £50. It would need wheels, chain-set, bottom bracket, seat, seatpost and front derailleur - i.e. the bits you'd want to replace anyway to make a trick custom version.
TattyHeadFred
Posts: 2
Joined: 26 Sep 2022, 4:39pm

Re: Rudge 'Bi-Frame' -a 'Proper' Folding Bike....?

Post by TattyHeadFred »

Hello, new here, old thread revival!

I'd be very grateful fir some advice.
I have just bought a Rudge Biframe 21.5" CT in black. I can't post photos, not sure if that's me being stupid or if I'm not allowed yet.

The components:

Suntour XCE FD, XCT Accushift RD.
6 speed Suntour cassette
Sakae Ovaltech Powering triple chainring
Suntour XCT gear shifters
G star cantilever breaks with G Star breakpads at the front but Fibbax breaks at the rear.
Dia-comp XCT brake levers.
Araya 26x1.5 front rim with an unnamed sealed unit hub with QR
Mach1 110F 559 * 210 ALLOY 6063.086.8 2. Rear rim.
I believe the original handlebars as it has a label reiterating the importance of the safety in regards to all the quick releases.

I have a seat post that has suspension that acts by the seat being attached to an octagonal pole that comes out of the seat post, that is some how sprung internally, and it drops straight down into the seatpost and up again.

The bike has either been dropped or crashed at some point as the dropout on the non drive side is slightly bent which means I have to pull the stays apart slightly to get the dropouts past the bolts on my axle. It sure if this is maybe because it's the wrong size hub or if is because of the bend, but then bend is only very slight for how much I have to pull. This stress can't be good for the frame can it?
Also, the axle cant seat all the way in properly as there is an uneven surface of mashed up steel inside the dropout that makes it narrower than the width of the axle. I'd been trying to sand it down which works, but slowly. My friend suggested taking an angle grinder to it.

How I want to ride:
I want to use it for getting around my city day to day, which is very hilly, and also to ride to dartmoor for wild camping, and to cycle different coastal paths, and varied terrain in preparation for doing some cycle touring.



QUESTIONS:
Will this bike hold up to the job?

Should I trust angle grinder? (My friend with the angle grinder)

What's the best way to straighten my dropout?

All the components seem to be working, however I need to sort the gears out, which I know how to do and will do once new cables arrive, however, the gear shifters.... the one for the 6 speed clicks when I move it, but the one for the 3 chainring doesn't click, it just slides smoothly, it moves the derailler, but when cycling it will be guess work while trying to shift. Is there a way I can fix this, or is that just the way they work(?!) Or do I need to replace it?

Should I keep the brakes I have, or is there better brakes I can fit on this bike, like V brakes or something? Something that works that wont affect the fold?

What things are compatible with this bike that I can get now, or what things should I be looking out for second hand?

I have not checked the BB because I don't have the confidence to. I've watched YouTube videos and there are so many different types, I don't want to damage it. What type is it that's on there already? It just says Tange steel HA 1.37x24T Japan on the drive side and Tange steel K1 1.37x24T Japan.
The underside of the housing says F9010152 on one place and 1K 007 in a larger print in another.
What BB's are compatible with this? Should I check it inside to see if it needs replacing or can I trust that it's fine? Someone here said something about crumbing bearings in one of theirs...... If I should replace it, what good drive systems can I get that will give me good climbing ability that will fit on this bike? Could I maybe even fit a mid drive ebike motor on this bike? What BB would I need? Or does it depend on the ebike system I wanted? Sorry for my lack of knowledge about this.

Can I fit a dynamo system for my lights that can also be used for charging devices?

What pannier/mudguard systems will fit?

Should I trust myself and my basic maintenance skills to fix this beauty up or should I just go to My LBS?

I've probably missed stuff out but this feels like a lot of stuff already.

Is this bike worthy of the love it appears to have got from me? Is it worth making it into my dream bike? (can it handle what I want?) If so, PLEASE HELP ME RESTORE THIS BEAUT AND SET US FREE INTO THE WILDERNESS!

Any advice about anything I haven't mentioned gratefully received.

Thanks in advance. Tatty.
cpg
Posts: 100
Joined: 30 May 2015, 1:08pm

Re: Rudge 'Bi-Frame' -a 'Proper' Folding Bike....?

Post by cpg »

These bikes are made of steel, therefore they are robust and will no doubt do what you want it to. The rear dropouts need to be set correctly and aligned with the rest of the frame. Special tools are required to get this right and therefore I suggest you take it to a good bike shop that has the correct equipment to perform the task. While it is there, it sounds to me like you are probably best to let them sort out any other issues.
The brake levers already on the bike might not be compatible with V brakes, although some do have two positions for the cable which makes them V brake compatible. I suggest you get the bike working first, ride it and then decide on upgrades if you get on with it.
Normal rear pannier racks will fit but they will affect the fold.
Good luck.
TattyHeadFred
Posts: 2
Joined: 26 Sep 2022, 4:39pm

Re: Rudge 'Bi-Frame' -a 'Proper' Folding Bike....?

Post by TattyHeadFred »

Thanks for taking the time to reply!

I will pootle to my LBS tomorrow to see what they say about it. I have ridden it, as soon as I got it I put a new tyre on and it was more than rideable. I spent a couple hours on it and I fell in love with it instantly. I stripped it down at that point and have been cleaning it up and assessing it ever since. I know I want to upgrade the brakes because what I've got is not properly safe even without a load on!
And it being steel gave me the elief it would be alright, but it's just that it being a folding bike is what made me question its capability for what I want.

I was hoping this would be my first labour of love to practice the maintenance skills I learned from the course I did but maybe I have probably bitten off more than I can chew with this one!

Thanks again.
fastpedaller
Posts: 3435
Joined: 10 Jul 2014, 1:12pm
Location: Norfolk

Re: Rudge 'Bi-Frame' -a 'Proper' Folding Bike....?

Post by fastpedaller »

To give you more info (and confidence) about the bike, it may be worth viewing the 'handbook' which would have been supplied when the bike was new. This is available if you look at the Montague website (may take some searching, ISTR it was listed in 'historic models' or similar description, unfortunately, I don't have the link. If you are unfamiliar with the mechanical parts of a bike (forgive me if I'm incorrect) then as stated above a local bike shop seems like the route to take. I'd not want to take an angle grinder to it - they are powerful tools which can cause a lot of damage very quickly. If it does need fettling a file is ample. I have one (a later model probably, as mine is 7 speed) and you need to ensure the rear hub is matched to the dropout width - again the shop should be able to advise. Again, the bottom bracket will be a traditional cup and cone one, which may be ok and just need a good greasing. I fitted a modern Shimano UN55 to mine, but my understanding is that there is sometimes insufficient room within the bottom bracket shell to insert one - mine only just had room, and scraped the label off when inserted! Again local bike shop should be able to help. Any further questions please ask, and photos may help. p.s. The shifter for the front derailleur may well be a friction one (hence no clicks) - I can't recall as I removed mine as I'm only using one chainring.
DevonDamo
Posts: 1036
Joined: 24 May 2011, 1:42am

Re: Rudge 'Bi-Frame' -a 'Proper' Folding Bike....?

Post by DevonDamo »

TattyHeadFred wrote: 27 Sep 2022, 1:15pmWill this bike hold up to the job?
Scroll up a bit and you'll see I've used mine on proper mountain bike trails. It's strong enough for any road/touring use.
TattyHeadFred wrote: 27 Sep 2022, 1:15pm What's the best way to straighten my dropout?
Scroll up and you'll see a discussion between myself and 'Brucey.' I had the same problem as you. I made my own tool to check whether the drop-outs are aligned. This is basically a pair of threaded bars that you bolt into your drop outs and check that they're pointing at each other. (I made mine from the remains of my rear axle, which had snapped in two - a common problem on bikes with 'freewheels' and one which you should check for.) As well as checking your dropouts, you might want to check your derailleur hanger. This requires a special tool, but if you find your gears are changing cleanly, you might decide not to bother.
TattyHeadFred wrote: 27 Sep 2022, 1:15pmthe one for the 6 speed clicks when I move it, but the one for the 3 chainring doesn't click, it just slides smoothly
This is normal. The front is a 'friction shifter' whereas the rear is 'indexed.'
TattyHeadFred wrote: 27 Sep 2022, 1:15pm Should I keep the brakes I have, or is there better brakes I can fit on this bike, like V brakes or something? Something that works that wont affect the fold?
The brakes work okay for me. Nothing spectacular, but good enough. As with any brakes, the main determinant of whether they work is how well maintained they are.
TattyHeadFred wrote: 27 Sep 2022, 1:15pm What BB's are compatible with this?
If you scroll up, you'll see I've removed the original bottom bracket and replaced it with a Shimano Hollowtech 2. This probably isn't as good as the original as they don't last as long, however, it was an easy item to find and fit. I also found I couldn't get the cranks off, so destroyed them in the process and replaced them with modern ones - easily done.
TattyHeadFred wrote: 27 Sep 2022, 1:15pm Could I maybe even fit a mid drive ebike motor on this bike? What BB would I need? Or does it depend on the ebike system I wanted? Sorry for my lack of knowledge about this.
Post this question in the eBike section of this forum, along with a link to this thread.
TattyHeadFred wrote: 27 Sep 2022, 1:15pm Can I fit a dynamo system for my lights that can also be used for charging devices?
Yes, but to do it properly, you'd need to rebuild your wheel with a dynamo hub, which would be a big job. (Although you might get lucky and find a 26" dynamo hub wheel to fit ready-made.) You'd also need to have the electronic gadget that manages the power from the dynamo and provides the charging socket.
TattyHeadFred wrote: 27 Sep 2022, 1:15pm What pannier/mudguard systems will fit?
Any old mudguards and pannier rack which will fit a 26" bike. The Rudge has all the attachment points needed for standard stuff.

(Sorry I haven't gone into detail with any of the technical questoins above. You've asked so many questions that your best bet is to use Google, and go back through this thread, where you'll find a few of your questions have already been answered.
TattyHeadFred wrote: 27 Sep 2022, 1:15pm Is this bike worthy of the love it appears to have got from me? Is it worth making it into my dream bike? (can it handle what I want?)
I'd say first get it up and running as cheaply as you can and then decide, based on how well you like how it rides. I've got two: one's a dog (probably due to a bent frame), and the other's okay. I think they're great folding bikes (because they ride just like a normal bike) but for me they're not worth spending a fortune on - just a handy thing for when you need to throw a bike in the car etc. But if it ticks all your boxes then go for it.
User avatar
andrew_s
Posts: 5795
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 9:29pm
Location: Gloucestershire

Re: Rudge 'Bi-Frame' -a 'Proper' Folding Bike....?

Post by andrew_s »

The bike will be from the early 1990s.

The BB 1.37x24 T(PI) marking is a standard "English" ISO/BSA threading.
The drive side is a left-hand thread, and undoes in the opposite way to normal.
The BB and cranks are almost certainly square taper. Any change away from this means new cranks as well as BB.

The BB itself could be an old-style 3-piece cup & cone BB, in which case the drive side should show a circular flange against the frame, with 2 flats on to take a suitable spanner, and the non-drive side will show an outer lockring with 6 (usually) notches in it for a C-spanner, and a similar number of holes for a pin-spanner. Other arrangements are possible, but uncommon. DIY tool for fixed cup removal (drive side)
Alternatively, it could be a square taper cartridge BB, removed using a suitable spline tool (same tool both sides).

A cup & cone BB is normally serviced roughly annually (take apart, clean, regrease, and reassemble, with new bearing balls if there's been a lot of use). All the 11 x 1/4" bearing balls on the same side should be from the same packet, so try to avoid mixing left- and right-side balls, just in case. Sometimes it's 9x1/4" balls in a cage in stead, which isn't as good, apart from being quicker to fit in the factory.
Cartridge BBs are remove and replace when they start to give problems (usually that the cranks move when you push/pull towards/away from the frame).
If it comes to replacement, check the width of the frame's BB lug. It could be either 73 mm (MTB standard) or 68 mm (road standard)


The gears:
Is it a cassette or a freewheel?
If you remove the QR/axle nut, and look at the centre area next to the axle whilst winding the cranks backwards, the central area will remain stationary if it's a freewheel, and move with the sprockets if it's a cassette (not that there will be much to see).
Alternatively, you can count the teeth on the smallest sprocket: 11/12 T = cassette; 13/14 T = freewheel (normally).

A freewheel is OK.
If it's a cassette, it may well be worth while getting the frame dropout width spread to 130 or 135 mm (from 126, probably) at the same time as the dropouts are aligned, as a replacement 6-speed SunTour cassette (or Shimano, for that matter) will be very difficult indeed to find, and likely be very expensive if you can. It would, however mean a new wheel, so you may prefer to leave this until the cassette dies.


Motor:
Mid-drive motors generally need a special frame, so almost all conversions use a motor in one of the wheels.
GideonReade
Posts: 410
Joined: 4 Jul 2010, 10:46pm

Re: Rudge 'Bi-Frame' -a 'Proper' Folding Bike....?

Post by GideonReade »

I wonder how it compares with Dahon's Matrix and Cadenza?

We have three of the former - don't tell that other thread discussing N+1!

The 200x era 26" Dahon frames are aluminium, with a toothy hinge in the toptube and downtube. It facilitates a fold with the wheels still in place.

Matrix has cheap suss forks and 3x8 gears, Cadenza IIRC plain forks and hub gears. Flat bars & disk brakes. Both have a few other tweaks for folding.

Work quite well. Before we got it sussed, sometimes the hinge lock disengaged. The bike remained surprisingly stable and usable with an extra steering hinge!
cpg
Posts: 100
Joined: 30 May 2015, 1:08pm

Re: Rudge 'Bi-Frame' -a 'Proper' Folding Bike....?

Post by cpg »

I can not comment directly on the Matrix and Cadenza but I have owned a Dahon Espresso. It rode well enough but the folded size was so big that you dont really gain much advantage from it being a folding bike. The Bi frame is a smaller fold due to it folding around the seat tube rather than halfway between the seat tube and head tube like the Dahon. Both bikes fold better with the front wheel removed.
rjb
Posts: 7200
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 10:25am
Location: Somerset (originally 60/70's Plymouth)

Re: Rudge 'Bi-Frame' -a 'Proper' Folding Bike....?

Post by rjb »

What an inspirational thread this is. Having piqued my interest I found a small one for sale that was convenient for me to collect and my size. 6x3 speed. I'm doing the rounds of babysitting so won't be home for a few more days. I purchased the bike and fortunately the fold wasn't seized so it's sitting inside my Hyundai i10 behind the back seat.
No chance to do anything with it until I get home but will post some pictures. It could do with a good clean and service but long term I will strip it completely and restore it to useful service. I noticed the diacompe wide arm cantilever brakes which look as if they rotate on an eccentric cam to adjust the brake shoe height. All will be revealed later. Itching to get home now. :D :D
At the last count:- Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X3, Raleigh 20 stowaway, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840 :D
GideonReade
Posts: 410
Joined: 4 Jul 2010, 10:46pm

Re: Rudge 'Bi-Frame' -a 'Proper' Folding Bike....?

Post by GideonReade »

rjb wrote: 10 Oct 2022, 2:14pm I found a small one for sale
... Jolly good, but, err, a small what?
Post Reply