Supercommuter?

For discussions about bikes and equipment.
Brucey
Posts: 46526
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Supercommuter?

Post by Brucey »

bike lives in a covered bike park at work and in a garage overnight. This is mainly OK but in some winters there is more road salt than rain, and corrosion is a real problem; the bike basically doesn't gets cleaned (more than once or twice a year) and this caused the previous commuting frame to suffer severe corrosion. You know how steel frames normally have a chainstay brace? Well the old commuting frame didn't any more, that is how bad it got.... :shock:

As I mentioned upthread the chrome plated parts on the bike (track nuts, headset etc) are suffering with superficial corrosion. The headset is remarkable; it is still perfectly smooth (it hasn't needed adjustment either since I rebuilt it with loose balls and SBX grease when I built the bike) yet the outside is very rusty in places. The conclusion is that waxoyl sticks well enough to zinc plated surfaces to do some good but on chrome plate it comes off too easily. The track nuts were badly plated and started going rusty in the first winter; they would have needed waxoyl every couple of months to stay good I reckon.

As far as an updated running report goes, nothing much to tell really; still just chewing its way through chains/freewheels/tyres/mudguard rivets...

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
alexnharvey
Posts: 1945
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:39am

Re: Supercommuter?

Post by alexnharvey »

I've been eyeing up some stainless track nuts, either these ones from zenith

https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/products/z ... nt-or-rear

Or some of the Chinese ones listed on eBay and Amazon although the reviews suggest the threads may be too far out to engage the axle.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sharplace-Stai ... B077PK7Z4J
cycle tramp
Posts: 4700
Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: Supercommuter?

Post by cycle tramp »

Three years and a couple of months ago I built this having read Bruceys post and having seen a very nice Dave Yates bike featuring 1 x 11 gearing and 26 inch wheels
20190929_135411.jpg

Not much has changed, the front brake works as well as it has ever done, the brake brake has become stronger as the shoes wear in, the headlight has changed from a bulb to l.e.d and the front chainrings dropped from 38 to 34 teeth, just so I can get a week's worth of shopping up the hill where I live.
What has been an eye opener is the lack of attention that I now need to give the brakes.... with my old rim brakes i had to measure the thickness of the wheel rim once a year, clean the black muck of the wheel rims every season and occasionally fit new brake blocks. Throughout the whole three years I've been riding this bike I've only had to adjust the front cable once and the rear twice. Amazing :-)
Dedicated to anyone who has reached that stage https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqbk9cDX0l0 (please note may include humorous swearing)
Brucey
Posts: 46526
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Supercommuter?

Post by Brucey »

update;

my chum's supercommuter bike is just about due for another chain and freewheel, so other parts are being changed as required too. On the shortlist are

- stainless steel track nuts (the old ones were very rusty but otherwise OK)
- change from a 44T aluminium chainring to a 48T steel chainring (so 48/18 becomes the 'normal' gear)
- outrigger bearing on the rear SA hub brake (the axles eventually break otherwise)
- stainless steel reaction clip for the rear brake (the old one has gone rusty)

Alex's link indeed provided M9x1 Stainless track nuts and the threads don't reach in far enough to make for good installation with a front SA hub brake. These track nuts will be modified to suit. At the rear the stainless steel ones are OK anyway, because more of the axle sticks out.

Otherwise not much to report, apart from a similar lack of drama concerning the brakes...

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Brucey
Posts: 46526
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Supercommuter?

Post by Brucey »

Update; The stainless track nuts have been modified and fitted; they were shortened by just less than 3mm, by knocking the collars off, reprepping the now-exposed shouldered end, and then refitting the collars. I have a lathe, but as much to show it doesn't require lots of tools to do this kind of work, I used an angle grinder to do the modification. The nuts were mounted on a spare front hub, set up so that the axle would spin freely whilst being ground to size.

However some actual maintenance has been required on the front brake. My chum reported that the front brake was noisy and didn't feel quite normal. The shoes were not badly worn or glazed, but were cleaned with degreaser and new 'lead-ins' (chamfers) were filed on the ends of the linings. I guess the linings are between 1/4 and 1/3rd worn now. However there was a fault which I had not seen before which was that one of the little steel 'boots' that protect the ends of the brake shoes where they bear against the cam had become dislodged; it was still on the shoe, just not in the right place any more. The cam was bone-dry too. I suspect that the bone dry cam had perhaps dragged the 'boot' out of position.

Anyway the 'boot' was simply pushed back into place, a tiny smear of lube on the cam, and the brake was back in action. It took all of ten minutes to do. The brakes are seven years old now and the rear has had nothing done to it and the front has not been apart for over six years, when the semi-floating brake plate was implemented (july 2013). When that was done, I don't think we touched the brake shoes.... should have greased the cam maybe.... :roll:

So not 100% maintenance free, quite, but not far off either; an occasional cable adjustment and ten minute's maintenance once every seven years isn't too bad....? At the current rate of wear (and it isn't hilly where the bike is used admittedly) the projected life of the brake linings is over 50000 miles or about twenty years..... :shock:

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
mig
Posts: 2782
Joined: 19 Oct 2011, 9:39pm

Re: Supercommuter?

Post by mig »

i feel that there really needs to be a fixed version of the super commuter. pompino type frame, big clearances, simple hubs, great lights.
alexnharvey
Posts: 1945
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:39am

Re: Supercommuter?

Post by alexnharvey »

I was running a fixed genesis day one for commuting until last week.

Dynamo lights. Nearly all bolts replaced with stainless. Some attempts at sealing it up. Waxed drive train. Xt rear hub with a bolt on sprocket filled with some semi fluid grease.

Gone to be replaced by a Surly cross check because I was underwhelmed by the mechanical discs and the stiff fork. Also likely to be fixed with most parts transferred across. Possibly using a front hub in the rear with the bolt on sprocket this time.

IMG_20190813_091326.jpg
ElCani
Posts: 541
Joined: 5 Mar 2015, 11:24am

Re: Supercommuter?

Post by ElCani »

alexnharvey wrote:I was running a fixed genesis day one for commuting until last week.

Dynamo lights. Nearly all bolts replaced with stainless. Some attempts at sealing it up. Waxed drive train. Xt rear hub with a bolt on sprocket filled with some semi fluid grease.

Gone to be replaced by a Surly cross check because I was underwhelmed by the mechanical discs and the stiff fork. Also likely to be fixed with most parts transferred across. Possibly using a front hub in the rear with the bolt on sprocket this time.


My Supercommuter is also a Day One (with an IGH) and I also have a Surly Cross Check, set up as gravel bike. The Day One fork does feel pretty unyielding in comparison to the Surly's - although I have never had them set up with similar tyres at the same time, so have no truly meaningful back-to-back comparison.

As it happens I'm after a 52cm Day One frame for my partner, so I've PM'ed you on the off chance yours is that size... :D
Brucey
Posts: 46526
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Supercommuter?

Post by Brucey »

Brucey wrote:…..my chum's supercommuter bike is just about due for another chain and freewheel, so other parts are being changed as required too. On the shortlist are

- stainless steel track nuts (the old ones were very rusty but otherwise OK)
- change from a 44T aluminium chainring to a 48T steel chainring (so 48/18 becomes the 'normal' gear)
- outrigger bearing on the rear SA hub brake (the axles eventually break otherwise)
- stainless steel reaction clip for the rear brake (the old one has gone rusty)……….


Ah.... the plans of mice and men; the above was posted in sept 2019 and the track nuts were done shortly after as planned. But the reaction arm clip still isn't done :roll: and the new chain/new freewheel/new chainring/outrigger bearing had to wait until, er, today. :shock:

So any way you look at it, the chain/freewheel should have been utterly done in; it was the filthiest, had been on the longest, had done the most miles, had been used with a worn chainring throughout and had been the most neglected of any used to date; by time/mileage (and comparison with previous chains/freewheels) it was deemed to be 'overdue for replacement' a year ago and then did another year with just an occasional drop of lube.

I'd offered to help my chum fit the outrigger bearing and he said "you don't want to go anywhere near this bike, it is so filthy, I have not cleaned it for over a year". He spent yesterday afternoon stripping and cleaning everything and I just spent a while today helping him refit everything.

Well to say I was surprised by the result is something of an understatement. The transmission that should have been worn out more than any other on this bike basically wasn't; when measured the (freshly cleaned) chain was slightly less than 0.5% worn. The most used sprocket on the freewheel was worn more than 0.5mm (the teeth tops are usually about 3.2mm wide and these were worn to ~2.5mm) but had largely retained its shape. To put this into perspective other chains have worn so badly (in the course of a year or a year and half) that they have not only destroyed the sprockets, the chain has even started to slip, not because of hooking but because the teeth became worn at funny angles. I in no way expected the result we saw and neither did my chum; before measuring the chain we both guessed it would be well over 1% worn.

So what had made the difference? Well, the chain lube, usage, freewheel make and model had been exactly the same as the transmissions used previously on this machine, and if anything the chain had seen less frequent lube than ever before. The only real difference was the chain used. When this chain was fitted (about two and a half years ago) I remember commenting that my chum had spent a bit more than normal on the chain. I may have even commented that "it would have to last longer than normal in order to be good value for money". The chain used was a shimano CN-HG71.

CN-HG71 is currently made by KMC for shimano. I am supposing that it was when this chain was purchased too. KMC describe this chain as having 'chromized pins', and 'enhanced durability'. Shimano recommend it as being suitable for E-bikes as well as others requiring a 6/7/8s chain. On the basis of what we have seen, I would say that one of these chains is at least worth paying double for vs the chains that have been used previously on this machine. The freewheel was replaced anyway but in fact the old one would probably have worked OK with a new chain.

On the basis of the above result you would think another CN-HG71 would be an obvious choice. Well, the new chain was chosen before the wear result was known so the die was already cast and the replacement is a KMC Z7. This chain is not described by KMC has having chromized pins or enhanced durability so it is more or less back to the usual fodder, and I don't expect it to last any better than most of the other previous chains on this machine. However it won't be quite such a good experiment; the chainring size will have changed (altering the pattern of wear on the sprockets) and my chum's commute route has just (about three weeks ago) changed slightly; whilst the distance is about the same the way the roads are gritted will be different.

In other news my chum had removed the brake barrel adjusters in order to clean them properly and refit them with lots of waxoyl. I was surprised that the barrel adjusters had slipped over the deformed part of the cable that had been inside the pinch bolt. Inevitably one cable (for the front brake) didn't go back through the barrel adjuster when my chum reassembled it. I had mentioned my own recent brake cable problem and so when this happened I said 'it probably needs changing anyway". The cables were still the ones originally fitted back in 2012. When the cable was pulled out there were broken strands about 2" away from the nipple in the (aero type) brake lever, just where the cable does a small 'S' bend as it transitions from the lever to the handlebar. The damage wasn't bad but I view it as being another bullet dodged; there were no external signs that the cable was damaged, it still ran smoothly inside the housing, yet it would surely have failed sooner or later.

The outrigger bearing went on without any dramas and should greatly reduce the chances of axle breakage. That is, if it isn't cracked already I suppose. Remarkably the hub bearings (cartridge bearings in this case) are still wonderfully smooth; all that has been done to them is that when they were new I fitted an RS type seal to the outside of each standard (steel-shielded) cartridge and packed them with better quality grease. They have not been touched since then; overdue a fettle then. However time ran short during the service today and they still feel good so they were left alone. The (larger) steel chainring was fitted and this will push the wear from 'mostly on the 16T sprocket' to 'mostly on the 18T sprocket'.

So the main takeaways for me are that

1) if you want to be safe, cables should just be changed at intervals rather than left until they give obvious problems.
2) spending money on better chains is certainly not money wasted.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
JakobW
Posts: 427
Joined: 9 Jun 2014, 1:26pm
Location: The glorious West Midlands

Re: Supercommuter?

Post by JakobW »

Interesting findings about the chain, given discussion in the other thread about cheap chains and Shimano fakes.

Looks like for 9 speed there are two Shimano chains, CN-HG53 and CN-HG93. Both claim to have chromed pins, and through the vagaries of pricing appear to be available for less than CN-HG71 from vaguely reputable retailers (given the discussion on the other thread I'm discounting eBay prices). I might have to try one of those next time I need a chain.
Brucey
Posts: 46526
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Supercommuter?

Post by Brucey »

In current shimano 9s chains CN-HG53 (currently branded Alivio or Capreo) is made by KMC for shimano and (I think) CN-HG93 (currently branded Alfine) is made by Izumi for shimano. Like you say both have chromized pins. However there is also shimano CN-E6070-9 chain model (branded 'steps E6000 e-bike') which is presumably different from either (it is a different -lower- claimed weight, so may use 10s-type (thinner but stronger steel) side plates in its construction ). I don't know who makes the latter.

It may be meaningful in terms of durability (or alternatively just marketing nonsense) when they claim a given chain is 'e-bike compatible' . Currently shimano's website says that CN-E6070-9 is e-bike compatible, and so is CN-HG71 (8s, KMC-made for shimano) chain. ISTR they used to say that about CN-HG93 too (FWIW I checked and several retailers do still say that).

In an ideal case one would like to buy a chain that benefits (via economies of scale) from the latest methods used to make ever-narrower chains more durable than they would be otherwise, yet are pitched at a market segment that means they are likely to be priced more reasonably. CN-HG53, CN-HG93, CN-HG71 are all available for about £15 (if the most common length of 116L is enough for you) from -like you say- vaguely reputable retailers (so are unlikely to be fakes). If they last longer than cheaper chains that makes them good value I think.

Incidentally I would have guessed that in KMC-made chains, the shimano chains would be roughly equivalent to KMC 'X' series chains. But I don't know that for sure. [ FWIW KMC X9 chain (114L) in the basic grey finish is currently on sale at CRC for £8.99 which may make it a very good deal.]

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Herts Audax
Posts: 53
Joined: 17 Aug 2018, 1:59pm

Re: Supercommuter?

Post by Herts Audax »

If the commute is 8 miles then wider tyres is faster is irrelevant as any differences are likely to be in single digit seconds if that. Commute times are far more dictated by other things anyway. What is important is having a wider tyre is far better on the rough roads often encountered on commutes.
Brucey
Posts: 46526
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Supercommuter?

Post by Brucey »

Here's a picture comparing the most worn (16T) sprocket with a virtually unworn sprocket of identical manufacture (immediately behind it).

unworn vs worn teeth; sprockets visible are 14T, 16T (worn), 16T, 18T
unworn vs worn teeth; sprockets visible are 14T, 16T (worn), 16T, 18T


I guess about 80% or 90% of the miles would have been one on that one sprocket.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
cycle tramp
Posts: 4700
Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: Supercommuter?

Post by cycle tramp »

Blimey! Eight years on from the original build, I wonder how many commuting miles that is?

Speaking as someone who may have to try an out-rigger bearing very soon, can I ask if you remember any details about fitting it? Did it the bearing just push in without any issue, did you have to grind off any material (either the freewheel or the inner diameter of the bearing) and if you remember, what size bearing did you use?
Dedicated to anyone who has reached that stage https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqbk9cDX0l0 (please note may include humorous swearing)
Brucey
Posts: 46526
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Supercommuter?

Post by Brucey »

the method I've used (a few times now) is to use an R6-2RS bearing (7/8" OD, 3/8" bore) and to grind the OD of the bearing to fit the freewheel (rather than the converse). This suits setups where the freewheel is a 'consumable' and the bearing is expected to outlast several freewheels. It also means that the freewheel bore remains as true as when it was made, which is difficult to be sure of otherwise.

I also grind the ID of the bearing if it is to be fitted to a nominally 10mm threaded axle. Both ID and OD grinding can be accomplished by allowing the bearing to spin during grinding; this ensures that the bearing remains concentric.

In practice the bearing OD doesn't have to come down more than 0.2mm to fit a freewheel with a shimano-ish spline and the bore only has to be enlarged by about 0.3mm before it will slide over most 10mm threaded axles. For the supercommuter the axles are 9mm dia so the bearing was only ground on the OD.

Probably you can source metric series bearings which fit some axles/freewheels better but for me, keeping one size of cartridge bearing for this task works well.

I have yet to fit an outrigger bearing to a SunTour freewheel and I think that will required a different approach; BITD I concluded that this would be more trouble that it was worth, but I may have a go now anyway.

One of the issues is that the bearing has to come out of the freewheel before you can use a freewheel remover. This is usually easily achieved with a cup and cone hub but with a cartridge bearing hub should the outrigger bearing get stuck in the freewheel there may be problems getting it out again. In all fairness it doesn't have to be a super-tight fit to do some good; the axle can safely flex a small amount, and this can be allowed provided the bearing helps share the load and helps prevent bigger axle excursions.

We think the 'Supercommuter' has now done ~15-20k miles, but no-one is keeping exact track. It is now either on freewheel/chain #5 or #6.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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