trailer or panniers on a camping tour

[meic]

Let me be clear. I never questioned the possibility to design a carbon touring frame, or the specific advantages of carbon, such as vibration camping. All I did was argue that carbon frames can be designed and are designed much more precisely for expected loads than can be with steel or aluminium. The designer can really put the strength where it is necessary, and save on material where it is not. This also means that there is less margin (because less waste) in the direction of loads for which the bike was not initially designed. If you have ever ridden with a loaded trailer you will know that the forces on the rear triangle are different from normal riding, and quite strong.
Rider weight is a somewhat similar issue. Professional road racers are mostly small and light, and their frames are designed accordingly. Put an 85 kg rider on such bikes, and add another 10 kg luggage, and you are very likely outside the design parameters. Remember, these bikes are so great because they are so efficient: nothing is wasted. That also means there is little margin beyond the design parameters.
Willem

Well eight and a half thousand miles with mine. The one thing that I was thinking of contributing to the conversation was pretty much the opposite of that. A two wheel trailer has very little effect on the bike to my mind.
Certainly less effect than the pedalling or braking, obviously so.

Under heavy braking there is a bit of a push on the rear wheel, however you utilise the rear brake much more with a trailer so even that load is mostly not going past the rear axle.

I do much prefer to have the weight on the bike even with the trailer as my bike is of the sort that is quite happy loaded up and weight on a bike is easier to control than weight in a trailer (especially if you get off the bike).

The slipping through gaps with a two wheeler isnt that much of a problem, I only recall having to unhitch to cross a style and lock gates. The wheel tracks IS a problem often forcing you to put the important bike wheels on gravel so that the trailer isnt in the hedge.

The big overwhelming drawback with two wheelers is wind drag. They get to be hard work above 15mph, in groups you long for the hills to give you a rest!!

[Brucey]

Re frame properties, vibration damping;

The primary concerns for bike frames are usually strength and stiffness, combined with adequate durability. 'Vibration damping' would usually come in fourth place behind these qualities. Some materials (e.g. steel) are quite well understood and have been shown to build into durable frames that can have good combinations of the other required qualities.

Other materials - and I'm mainly thinking of Aluminium here- have been shown to build into frames that are in many people's eyes, more compromised; typically they are either too stiff for many purposes, or insufficently durable. If combined with suspension and fat tyres, excess stiffness isn't such a big problem.

Whilst I'm sure that you would get a different vibration damping quality in a CF frame designed for touring, I'm not sure to what extent you could trade this property whilst retaining adequate levels of the others for the design conditions, or if you could, whether this would turn into a compelling advantage, outweighing the potential disadvantages.

cheers

[willem jongman]

Two wheel trailers have less effect on the rear triangle than one wheeled trailers, as I said earlier. That is why I prefer them. My experience was with a tandem and light steel road bike with pretty slim stays. The trailer had relatively little effect on the tandem, but a lot more on the road bike. Meic mentions he used the trailer with a proper tourer - I think that may explain the difference between our experiences. To be sure, I quite like having the trailer as it is a nice way to use a road bike with luggage. Ride somewhere, pitch your tent for a few days, and go for a blast without luggage. But in my experience, it may be wise to stay away from the very lightest frames. That is all.
Willem

[Brucey]

I have done little riding with trailers myself, but a friend has used a heavily loaded one quite extensively. On steep climbs his chainstays etc were clearly not stiff enough for the torque required to propel his very heavy load. In addition the trailer itself applied the load in an unusual way to the frame.

It may have been coincidence, but the chainstays on his frame (which were amongst the thickest walled ones available at the time it was built) subsequently failed.

I don't think that lugging any given weight on the bike (rather than in a trailer) is any less bad overall, but I'm pretty sure it is rather different, and this may have unexpected consequences.

cheers

[meic]

I have done little riding with trailers myself, but a friend has used a heavily loaded one quite extensively. On steep climbs his chainstays etc were clearly not stiff enough for the torque required to propel his very heavy load. In addition the trailer itself applied the load in an unusual way to the frame.

It may have been coincidence, but the chainstays on his frame (which were amongst the thickest walled ones available at the time it was built) subsequently failed.

I don't think that lugging any given weight on the bike (rather than in a trailer) is any less bad overall, but I'm pretty sure it is rather different, and this may have unexpected consequences.

cheers

Do you mean that trailers as a group apply the load in an unusual way to the frame? Or that his trailer was attached in a curious and detrimental manner?

[willem jongman]

One strange sensation is that the pull of the trailer varies when the weight distribution of the load on the trailer changes on uneven surfaces. Sometimes the trailer pulls hard when the load distribution moves to the rear, and sometimes when the trailer rises in respect of the bike you suddenly feel a push from behind. This is obviously more so when you load the trailer heavily (we had 40kg on it on our family camping tours), and you clearly feel this more strongly on a light solo bike than on a tandem.
Our trailer is the Challenge (Dutch recumbent manufacturer) built predecessor of the Radical Cyclone, with a hitch at the rear hub. It is light, with a low centre of gravity, and very stable, even on long and fast Alpine descents. So it is not an inferior representative of the type. It was what made our family cycle camping tours possible, and I have very happy memories of it.
Willem

[meic]

A similar and I would say much greater effect can be had if you have a child "jumping" in their harness on the trailer seat. I dont know how the physics of it work but you can not continue to cycle when they do it, it saps your strength quicker than a 1 in 5.

[al_yrpal]

...or, ride somewhere with just panniers and a bar bag in civilised places with bike shops never far away. Pitch your tent, leave your panniers and stuff in the tent, go for a blast on your bike with few valuables in the bar bag.

Cannot see why one needs a trailer unless you prefer the feel of an unloaded bike pulling a trailer? Flimsy bikes are a pain on a tour. You need a strong, vibration damped, comfortable bike for long hours on the road, and the less clutter the better. Clutter leads to faffing, which wastes time and will annoy your touring companions. Some folk bring lots of unecessary clothing and they don't choose light stuff or compact stuff either. Only one of my regular touring companions carries front panniers and he is the most disorganised and always does a lot of faffing!

Al

[willem jongman]

Sure, I am all in favour of touring light with just two panniers, and my regular tourer is sturdy enough for that, and then something. If I did not have the trailer from our tandem days with the kids, I would never buy one. I much prefer the more direct feel of control you get riding with panniers. But that is a very personal thing. I also think that a light road bike plus a light trailer are still heavier than a tourer with two panniers. Not to mention the lack of proper low gearing on most road bikes, or the
Willem

[Brucey]

Do you mean that trailers as a group apply the load in an unusual way to the frame? Or that his trailer was attached in a curious and detrimental manner?

More the former; I know there are many different designs, but they all apply loads into the bike that are rather different from those that a typical frame is designed for.

BTW my chum's trailer was a two wheeled one with a left-side coupling on the dropout. The chainstays broke near the brace behind the BB shell. If I had to speculate, I 'd say the extra pedalling forces required may have caused more damage than the trailer loading per se, but that is just speculation on my part.

cheers

[Brucey]

. and the less clutter the better. Clutter leads to faffing, which wastes time and will annoy your touring companions. Some folk bring lots of unecessary clothing and they don't choose light stuff or compact stuff either. Only one of my regular touring companions carries front panniers and he is the most disorganised and always does a lot of faffing!

Al

I quite agree; on one tour there were four of us including one who faffed a bit more than normal. I recall that one of our number quipped that most mornings we were 'Grandmaster Faff and the Furious Three'....( a reference to what some might refer to as 'a popular beat combo' I believe... )

cheers

[meic]

I have not done any force diagrams but intuitively the 2 wheel trailers put very little load on anything. After unhitching my trailer I sometimes pull it to a shed just with it dangling on the safety strap, it is as if there is nothing there.
Even on a fairly steep climb the force needed to pull a trailer up a hill is pretty little and it is applied almost directly to the rear axle. On a flat road you could pull that trailer with a post office elastic band.

With panniers the whole weight is supported directly by the rack and frame (they sometimes break too) with a trailer you only have the force of a fraction of the weight pulling or pushing on the rear axle with a slight offset of the line of force.
If the bike can handle the load on its back (almost all can on smooth roads) then a trailer should not be any challenge to it at all.

That is how I see it, through my experience of them, I am happy to be educated further.

If I dont have the daughter to carry around, I would choose panniers before the 2 wheel trailer. It is easier, mostly due to the wind drag already mentioned.

[Brucey]

I have not done any force diagrams but intuitively the 2 wheel trailers put very little load on anything. After unhitching my trailer I sometimes pull it to a shed just with it dangling on the safety strap, it is as if there is nothing there.
Even on a fairly steep climb the force needed to pull a trailer up a hill is pretty little and it is applied almost directly to the rear axle. On a flat road you could pull that trailer with a post office elastic band.

With panniers the whole weight is supported directly by the rack and frame (they sometimes break too) with a trailer you only have the force of a fraction of the weight pulling or pushing on the rear axle with a slight offset of the line of force.
If the bike can handle the load on its back (almost all can on smooth roads) then a trailer should not be any challenge to it at all.

That is how I see it, through my experience of them, I am happy to be educated further.

If I dont have the daughter to carry around, I would choose panniers before the 2 wheel trailer. It is easier, mostly due to the wind drag already mentioned.

I agree that with a modest load (comparable with what you might carry in panniers), centred over the wheel, the trailer loads into the bike are normally quite small on a flat road. But heavier loads, uncentred loads, hills, and bumpy/uneven roads create a whole different situation. In particular anything that causes the bike or the trailer to pitch suddenly is normally fairly harmless, but with a trailer the tow hitch can be subjected to a sudden tension/compression load. Some hitches have a coupling that soaks up some of this movement, and this very much reduces the peak forces that are imposed.

I think a major benefit of a trailer is the ability to carry a heavier load without damaging the bike so quickly; however damage may still arise, but in a different way. For myself, I'd try an avoid packing so much gear as that, but I do realise that others may not have that choice.

cheers

[Vorpal]

I have a two wheeled trailer. It is a cheap and cheerful Amaco child trailer, designed to hold two children. I has comfortably carried two children plus accessories and plants from the garden centre, a weeks' shopping, the haul from the jumble, building supplies, 100 kg of cat litter, etc. I've towed it with my (aluminum alloy) road bike, my old hybrid, and my Thorn Voyager tandem. It is wide, so it does occasionally give me trouble with barriers and things.

Children are more work to tow than their equivalent weight or more in your choice of heavy stuff.

I love my trailer, but the only time I would tour with it would be if I were also hauling two children on the tandem. I'd never be able to get enough stuff for me and two children into a pair of front panniers, plus the space underneath littlest on the rear, even if I wanted that much more stuff on the bike.

On my own, however, two rear panniers is enough space. A trailer is too much. Whatever I carry seems to expand to encompass all available carrying capacity en route, no matter what I start with. So, if I took a trailer, it scares me to think how much I might end up hauling .

[foxyrider]

To answer the OP, my vote would be panniers if you can keep the bulk down, a sngle wheel trailer if not.