Retro Shim mating with Campy

[student]

Hi there!

I've searched the forum, and found that 8 spd 20th century campagnolo STI shifters work well with 6-7 spd shimano systems.

Now, I have 6 spd casette at the rear and a RD6400 shimano600 rear derailleur, the campy stuff I can get is anything from the nineties.

Is the conversion from index shifting is possible to ergo shifting with that rear setup and some campy lever? Or should I change the casette to 7 spd (as I know, campagnolo 8 speed has exactly the same spacing, 5mm-s as shimano, whereas shimano rear derailleur would require 3.2 mm cable pull per click, the campa stuff would drag 3.5 mm. How can I convert the system to "lose" that extra 0.3 mm-s?)

And finally.. won't the extra clicks propose a problem? I've thought-found that if one sets up the rear derailleurs end limit correctly, it'd impossible to make that extra click. Unfortunately I cannot get local help as everyone tells it's impossible to build such a patch-work of shifting system, but obviously, it's not...

PS: I don't see any reason to go above 7 spd mechs at the rear, as my country is flat as a mirror, not to mention the terrible road conditions, mud, dust, which can get into between the rollers of the shifter and the cogwheels quite easily.. it'd be hell of a pain to maintain a 9-10 spd system in a good working condition..

Any advices-nonos? I don't want to rush anything with buying a campa shifter as long as I don't know how to make it work correctly I've read quite a lot about the systems and shimergo setups, but I'm still skeptical, as every local mech seems to think I'm crazy to even give a think to this kind of idea..

[Brucey]

most of your questions are answered here;

http://archive.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault-TabID=3946.aspx.html

there are many subtleties; some are so subtle that they don't make any difference at least some of the time.

Note that if you are prepared to remount the cable in a different place on the rear mech, (Hubbub is just one) you can make all kinds of weird arrangements work OK.

BTW Campag 8 ergos, your rear mech (with hubbub mount) and 6 speed cluster should work just dandy.

also campag 8 ergos, an 'old' (i.e. 7 or 8 speed) campag rear mech and a shimano 7s cluster will also work just fine.

cheers

[gaz]

.

[cycleruk]

If you can acquire some old style pre-2000 9 speed Ergo's then, using a Shimano derailleur, these would match your six speed spot on.

(Pre-2000 controls are blank or have the groupset printed on the front, new-style say "9-speed".)

[student]

Thanks everyone for the answers and further help-information. I'm in the fortunate position that my exams are just beginning, so after the 1.5 months of this period, in the next semestre, I'll get the neccessary parts and give it a go.

Again, thanks for everyone, I'll keep up educating myself and reading about tech details in order not to ask idiot questions.

[niggle]

I converted an old 6-speed triple chainset touring bike using Campag 8 speed Ergos and a modern Shimano Deore 9 speed rear mech with the Hubbub cable attachment mod and it worked reasonably well, but not perfectly. I think the Ergos were a bit worn and the Hubbub mod was a bit hit and miss, so I think that going for 'old type' 9 speed Ergos would be better. BTW if you have an old pre indexing era rear mech it will not work well, you need any of the modern indexing types intended for 6-9 speed. The extra clicks in the Ergo right hand shifter is a non issue.

Mind you although the bike was about 25 years old, it had done a very limited mileage, and yet the rear axle broke despite not doing any loaded touring, just as legend has it for freewheel equipped bikes with QR wheels.

Fora new touring bike build I am going to try using some Veloce Ultrashift Ergos with Shimano 8-speed, a combo that is also supposed to work well.

[Brucey]

one of the subtleties is that the clicks in some campag ergos, although nominally 'x' mm cable pull per click, in detail are no such thing. Nearly all of them pull more cable per click towards the bigger sprockets, and this is to match the geometry of campag rear mechs.

In addition the clicks are not perfectly evenly spaced in the ergo. I don't know why this is, but it might be a patent-evading trick or something.

For example, a campag 8 speed ergo click wheel clearly has one shift bigger than the others in the middle of the block somewhere. The matching sprockets however, are evenly spaced. Many other campag clusters have had a few spacers in them which are odd thicknesses. It is all rather peculiar.

One thing I would say about a 6 speed system is, if you can, fit HG type sprockets if you want a slick shift. On a freehub, you can fit HG sprockets with a bit of modification to 6s spacing, and for a freewheel, there are shimano, SunRace and others with nice ramps that shift really rather well.

cheers

[niggle]

One thing I would say about a 6 speed system is, if you can, fit HG type sprockets if you want a slick shift

I had forgotten but that was the other thing I had to change. The original 'Alpine' freewheel had strange spacing anyway.

[student]

fortunately My rear derailleur is indexed, works flawlessly, shifts perfectly even under load when cycling uphill for instance.

I don't know whether I can get 7 spd casette pn the body of the FH1051 hubs, theoretically it's possible.. but I have to give it a try first

[Brucey]

yes you can; the hubs are 6/7 speed compatible.



However you need 7s spacers (i.e. 3.05mm usually), and a threaded (i.e. UG) top cog to retain all the others. You cannot fit HG cogs unless they are lightly modified to alter the timing spline that UG cogs lack, and even then you still need the UG threaded top cog.

In the longer term you can either fit a 7s HG freehub body, or even an 8s/9s HG freehub body to your hub. In the latter instance the hub will need to be respaced to 130mm OLN.

You can also think about installing an 8-from-9 cassette onto a 7s body.

I'm sure there are a few other weird things you can try if you want to.

cheers

[student]

In fact, the 2012 Tiagra rear hubs are so cheap that even 8 packets of cigarette costs more than those... and they're 8-10 spd compatible

[Brucey]

-which is OK if you are happy to both rebuild your wheel, and respace your frame to accept the wider rear hub.

A while ago I realised that, with a typical 9s set-up on the road, the smallest sprocket was essentially very unlikely to be used. It is quite diffcult to buy a wide ratio 9s cassette with anything other than an 11T or 12T top (and if you do use the stupid things they just wear out in double-quick time anyway). IIRC if you (say) want a 9s 13-32T, you have to build it yourself from two cassettes.

Having realised this, I was a fair bit happier with the idea of keeping a 6/7s cassette body. An '8 from 9' arrangement means I only lose a gear (from a standard cassette) that I don't use anyway.

Widening the rear end is still useful, even with a 7s cassette body; you can have reduced wheel dish which makes for a much stronger wheel. A 7s 135mm OLN wheel has very little dish and is very strong indeed.

I guess a potential problem is that 7s cassette bodies are more difficult to buy new now. However; a) I re-shim them which makes them last much longer ( the wear rate is greater whenever there is any slack in the bearings) and b) I recently found I was able to buy 7s 135mm OLN rear hubs (complete with skewer) for less than ten quid, so I'm set for spares now.

cheers

[student]

fortunately there's some zoggie casette which is I believe 7 spd and UG compatible, with 11-23 teeth cogs as I recall, for some 10-15 euros? I think I'd be able to use those, without re-spacing the rear of my bike.

[Brucey]

fortunately there's some zoggie casette which is I believe 7 spd and UG compatible, with 11-23 teeth cogs as I recall, for some 10-15 euros? I think I'd be able to use those, without re-spacing the rear of my bike.

I'm not sure I've seen that, do post a link if you have one.

cheers

[student]

http://ebike.hu/products/drivetrain/cas ... +cassette/ according to the hungarian description, and the seller in the bike shop, these casettes are both UG and HG compatible.. is that even possible?