20 mph limit

orbiter · Post by **orbiter** » 25 Jul 2007, 2:28pm

Some interesting figures from the DfT which I thought worth sharing:

At 40mph 85% of people hit by vehicles die
At 30mph 20% of people hit by vehicles die
At 20mph 5% of people hit by vehicles die
SOURCE: DfT

A good agument for campaigning for a 20mph limit in your town, which would also improve safety for cyclists and hopefully encourage more people onto the road.

Pete

reohn2 · Post by **reohn2** » 25 Jul 2007, 6:24pm

I agree totally but we need more people(police) to enforce the speed limits and make speeding as antisocial as drink driving.

orbiter · Post by **orbiter** » 25 Jul 2007, 8:18pm

There are better ways of reducing traffic speed in towns than police, through road design. Some examples: http://tinyurl.com/2k4ak2 & http://tinyurl.com/2uxor7. Note the comments about speed. Without a speed limit or police.

mhara · Post by **mhara** » 25 Jul 2007, 9:42pm

Hi Orbiter.
First item interesting. Second wouldn't open. Is there another way to link to it?

orbiter · Post by **orbiter** » 25 Jul 2007, 10:37pm

mhara wrote:Hi Orbiter.
First item interesting. Second wouldn't open. Is there another way to link to it?

Just remove my full stop at the end of the link. Sorry.

Here's something from closer to home http://tinyurl.com/yrc4gu
and some sensible comments http://tinyurl.com/24owbh (excuse the political surroundings).

reohn2 · Post by **reohn2** » 25 Jul 2007, 11:20pm

I'll agree with that but we do need forward thinking authorities to make it happen.Unforunately such authorities are thin on the ground.

orbiter · Post by **orbiter** » 25 Jul 2007, 11:58pm

reohn2 wrote:I'll agree with that but we do need forward thinking authorities to make it happen.Unforunately such authorities are thin on the ground.

Quite true - nag yours or start a local campaign. There's increasingly wide support for the 20 mph limit, encouraged by the DtF, so a good chance of getting your council thinking about it. Write to the local papers at least.

mhara · Post by **mhara** » 26 Jul 2007, 10:01am

There's full page coverage in today Times. Haven't looked online so can't give URL.
Acknowledges that drivers' speeding is a major factor, but doesn't appear to have asked CTC or other cycling organisations for their expert advice re solutions.
I'd have liked to see the article propose that all drivers ought, without exception, be considered to be at fault if in a collision with a pedestrian or cyclist.

Hit a cyclist/pedestrian? - Automatic fine, its scale rising to higher amounts and then starting to add in prison terms, the length of which also rises depending on severity.

I'm sure that would have more effect than thousands and thousands of speed cameras. Not as lucrative for the police though......

Tom Richardson · Post by **Tom Richardson** » 26 Jul 2007, 1:53pm

that was the intention of the 5th european insurance directive mhara - not automatic fines but to recognise that if you use a heavy and dangerous piece of equipment in a public place you should take responsibility for the risks that it brings to others, and insure accordingly (bringing the rules that apply in Holland for example to the rest of Europe). Of course we've had it watered down so it won't make any significant difference now.

glueman · Post by **glueman** » 26 Jul 2007, 2:43pm

mhara wrote:Hit a cyclist/pedestrian? - Automatic fine, its scale rising to higher amounts and then starting to add in prison terms, the length of which also rises depending on severity.

A little harsh. If a drunk staggers between parked cars or a cyclist jumps a red and I T-bone him why should I pay? The principal of responsibilty is sound as is a 20mph urban limit.

mhara · Post by **mhara** » 26 Jul 2007, 5:48pm

I think Tom Richardson has already provided a potential answer to your question of

If a drunk staggers between parked cars or a cyclist jumps a red and I T-bone him why should I pay? The principal of responsibilty is sound as is a 20mph urban limit.

Unless all drivers beleive that any collision with a pedestrian/cyclist will result in varying degrees of the sky falling on their heads then we don't make any progress on this. I don't see how the degree of fallen sky can plausibly start at zero?

I'm interested to see what's the view of any of this Forum's advocates of zero tolerance?

orbiter · Post by **orbiter** » 26 Jul 2007, 8:57pm

My interest in 20 mph zones is that they benefit everybody, so there is a very good chance of getting them more widely implemented, unlike other things we might like to see (such as assumed blame [sorry, I hate the term ' zero tolerance'])

By reducing traffic speed, drivers become far more aware of cyclists & pedestrians and safety for all increases greatly, as has been demonstrated in Holland particularly.

A key thing (as one of the articles I referred to earlier observed) is re-engineering roads to reduce speed, NOT just (or even) switching on a speed limit.

I'd be interested to hear of any street engineering like this in the UK. I'm sure some councils must be at least experimenting with it by now. Also, are there any cyclists from Portsmouth who can comment on the effect of the 20mph limits there?

Pete

glueman · Post by **glueman** » 26 Jul 2007, 9:21pm

The great advantage of 20mph is no matter how big a plonker the driver or rider, the outcomes are unlikely to be fatal. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for sail before steam but as Orbiter has said, road design (or un-design imho) is the key to this.
Hasn't Newbury (?) removed all road markings and signage in the town centre? The result AFAIK is more uncertainty and timid driving.

orbiter · Post by **orbiter** » 26 Jul 2007, 11:34pm

mhara wrote:There's full page coverage in today Times.

I was forced to drag myself out to the pub tonight to read this (as they buy the Times but I don't) but didn't find it! If you do find the url somtime I'd be interested.

mhara · Post by **mhara** » 27 Jul 2007, 2:34pm

Thursday 26th edition, Times2 Section, page 6 Hope this works...
http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/article2139332.ece

Be warned - there's a picture of J*r*m* Cl*rks*n on the same page.