The Reluctant Folder
I've done Brompton rides of 25+ miles with no real problem. Mine's a L3 (3-speed Sturmey) and the area around the south of Bath where I live isn't exactly flat and I'm not exactly fit which makes me wonder why we need all those gears anyway - no shame in walking on the really steep bits, exercises different muscles...). Little wheels seem to cope fine with canal towpath type surfaces. It goes on the bus (in the basic Brompton cover to avoid any unwelcome confrontations), train, been shopping with me (minimal risk of theft and if some scrote did take it wouldn't get far anyway 'cos he wouldn't know how to unfold it). The Brompton is one of those things which, once you've got one, you wonder how you managed before. A bit like a fridge. (!)
Glueman,
I like your small mountain bike idea, a good solution for ride quality and low cost
<Stores idea in memory for future>
Experiencing similar weariness with taking bikes on trains, I recently decided to buy a folder. I tried three.
First a Mezzo (£550). I didn't like the ride, but the riding posture was okay. I tried the Shimano Inter 4 version but would have tried the 9 speed derailleur if they'd had one. The saleman watched me come back into the shop and asked "did you like it". I just shook my head and looked bemused, as in 'why would someone spend £550 on that?'
However I then tried a Brompton S type (the £900 two speed Brompton). That was worse. Twitchy steering. Really difficult to actually keep it going in a straight line. Those are each 16 inch wheelers.
I finally tried a Ridgeback 8 speed (£400), a Dahon by another badge. It rode almost like a normal bike, the 20 inch wheels helped. The folding process was cumbersome, involving the separation and rotation of handlebar from stem and at nearly 13kg it was too heavy for chucking into a train I thought.
I figured the Brompton put folded package size ahead of ride. The Dahon put ride ahead of folded package. The Mezzo was in the middle. I struggled with spending the price of a half decent road bike on something looking like what the clown rides in the circus.
So, if the Mezzo had been the friendly side of £400 I would have bought one. Folders epitomise compromise.
What I got was a Kalkhoff 8 speed. It's an aluminium Dahon with slight design mods. The handlebar height is adjustable, making for a riding position closer to the road bike I am used to. It's not a particularly small folded package but easy to get it small enough that I can treat it like long slim luggage when half folded (bars down + seat down + pedals folded).
I think I needed those earlier test rides as a frame of reference to know what suited me and to know where I should be setting my standards (as it turned out, much lower than I imagined). I hesitate to say this because you won't enjoy it but.. try a few.
Of course the need for folders is a problem of, and perhaps a contributor to, inadequate train design.
Yes, I too feel in a way that I'm letting the side down by having one but it doesn't keep me awake at night.
Incidentally Northern Rail have a good cycle policy, one of the best of the bunch.
Demountables, frame couplings and DIY portability are all options that would give better ride quality while compromising portability.
<Thinks about small mountain bike idea more.> Maybe you've already got a good enough solution.
I like your small mountain bike idea, a good solution for ride quality and low cost
<Stores idea in memory for future>
Experiencing similar weariness with taking bikes on trains, I recently decided to buy a folder. I tried three.
First a Mezzo (£550). I didn't like the ride, but the riding posture was okay. I tried the Shimano Inter 4 version but would have tried the 9 speed derailleur if they'd had one. The saleman watched me come back into the shop and asked "did you like it". I just shook my head and looked bemused, as in 'why would someone spend £550 on that?'
However I then tried a Brompton S type (the £900 two speed Brompton). That was worse. Twitchy steering. Really difficult to actually keep it going in a straight line. Those are each 16 inch wheelers.
I finally tried a Ridgeback 8 speed (£400), a Dahon by another badge. It rode almost like a normal bike, the 20 inch wheels helped. The folding process was cumbersome, involving the separation and rotation of handlebar from stem and at nearly 13kg it was too heavy for chucking into a train I thought.
I figured the Brompton put folded package size ahead of ride. The Dahon put ride ahead of folded package. The Mezzo was in the middle. I struggled with spending the price of a half decent road bike on something looking like what the clown rides in the circus.
So, if the Mezzo had been the friendly side of £400 I would have bought one. Folders epitomise compromise.
What I got was a Kalkhoff 8 speed. It's an aluminium Dahon with slight design mods. The handlebar height is adjustable, making for a riding position closer to the road bike I am used to. It's not a particularly small folded package but easy to get it small enough that I can treat it like long slim luggage when half folded (bars down + seat down + pedals folded).
I think I needed those earlier test rides as a frame of reference to know what suited me and to know where I should be setting my standards (as it turned out, much lower than I imagined). I hesitate to say this because you won't enjoy it but.. try a few.
Of course the need for folders is a problem of, and perhaps a contributor to, inadequate train design.
Yes, I too feel in a way that I'm letting the side down by having one but it doesn't keep me awake at night.
Incidentally Northern Rail have a good cycle policy, one of the best of the bunch.
Demountables, frame couplings and DIY portability are all options that would give better ride quality while compromising portability.
<Thinks about small mountain bike idea more.> Maybe you've already got a good enough solution.
Last edited by Zanda on 16 Nov 2007, 3:44pm, edited 2 times in total.
Zanda wrote:Incidentally Northern Rail have a good cycle policy, one of the best of the bunch.
<Thinks about small mountain bike idea more.> Maybe you've already got a good enough solution.
Indeed, the Trans-Pennine route for which I came up with the idea rendered it unneccessary, I just wheel the whole bike on - but it's handy on inter-city routes.
Actually I have tried a few folders, albeit for short goes. My conclusions were like your's Zanda, a solution to a problem that was itself artificial, an arbitrary demand for shrunken bikes by people who knew little about what they were asking for.
The resulting object ranges from bum prop, mini-wheeled collapsibles to large wheeled take-apart's, the nearer the thing is to a 'normal' bike the more potential for conventional day rides and the longer they take to put together. An MTB with the bits off being no more problematic to construct than the more orthodox folders. Some solutions do seem like a rip off (or am I just a tight ar*e?), flea market Raleigh Stowaway look-alikes with aluminium wheels do not represent 40 years of incisive thought on the matter or a good way to blow half a grand +.
For anyone considering the little mountain bike route you can get an aluminium 12-13" model pretty cheap, especially at this time of year. Taller people will need a longer seat post and stem but you'll still be well in pocket and riding something that looks much less circusish than a thing you could blow a load of money on. Brompton folding pedals are another useful addition and a bag tag with 'Sports Equipment' keep away nosy guards. I'm sure other people have come to the same conclusion.
Zanda wrote:Out of interest, do you use a threaded headset and turn the stem through 90 degrees to stow the bike?
It's an Ahead set. Yes, I loosen the two allen bolts and swivel it. Turning the forks back saves an extra few inches too. A small MTB frame packs to a compact squashed diamond shape. My wife fitted a few tension straps to the bag so I can alter the degree of compaction depending on how much time I have (or fussy the guard looks).
There are other ways of saving a bit more space which I haven't tried, such as going single speed/fixed and using a small chainring and sprocket and you can detach the bars from front-loading stems and align them with the frame. It sounds a bit Heath-Robinson but it's really just undoing and tightening bolts and you do get pretty quick when you have to.
If you require a folder but want it to ride like a road bike then buy an Airnimal. The Joey gives a sprightly ride and does fold reasonably small. The Chameleon is lighter (22lbs), folds slightly larger than the Joey, but rides like a racing bike and is quick. I've just bought the Chameleon but with a triple chainset and a larger block as I intend to use it for light touring. I'm very happy with it.
airnimal and mezzo
I'd like to throw the Airnimal and Mezzo into the mix here too! 
Used both (not at the same time) when I'm not cycling the whole route on my road bike.
If you want a fast bike that's very "bike like" in behaviour and handling, the Airnimal Joey is a superb option. Folding doesn't take too long although you do have to remove the front wheel, so if the train's about to pull out of the station or is crowded - forget it.
If folding speed is important then the Mezzo is quite remarkable, the catches are all quick release so it's a matter of seconds to fold and unfold and folds down to a very compact size. I had no problems with the ride quality and found it to give a very solid stable ride.
Used both (not at the same time) when I'm not cycling the whole route on my road bike.
If you want a fast bike that's very "bike like" in behaviour and handling, the Airnimal Joey is a superb option. Folding doesn't take too long although you do have to remove the front wheel, so if the train's about to pull out of the station or is crowded - forget it.
If folding speed is important then the Mezzo is quite remarkable, the catches are all quick release so it's a matter of seconds to fold and unfold and folds down to a very compact size. I had no problems with the ride quality and found it to give a very solid stable ride.
Dahon Speed Pro is a fast folder, ie fast and it folds rather than it folds fast. Not as easy to carry as a Brompton but Touring bike style gear range with SRAM Dual Drive. Mine has done 3500 miles and I still smile as I get on for a ride. Their slip on cover protects the bike (and you from oilly chain) I own a Thorn Club Tour and will do the same runs on both bikes, I use the Speed Pro when I want to avoid locking the bike in a dodgy area as I can carry it into a building.
Zanda wrote:
What I bought was a Kalkhoff 8 speed, second hand. I figure it's an aluminium Dahon with slight design mods. The handlebar height is adjustable, making for a riding position closer to the road bike I am used to. Not a particularly small folded package but easy to get it small enough that I can treat it like long slim luggage when half folded (bars down + seat down + pedals folded).
Zanda
Your experiences seem to be smilar to mine re ride quality etc. I also have the 'problem' that I cannot get on with straight bars (please, no-one suggest bar ends!) so would like to modify any folder to take drops or lo-pro style (or even On-One Midge), however most folders now fold the bars between the frame fold meaning any bar that is not straight will interfere with the fold. Your choice of the Kalkoff is shown on Wiggle with the bars between the frame but is that because the front wheel is turned 180deg?
The Speed Pro TT is the only one so far that meets the requirement.
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Ben Lovejoy
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Bromptons are all about fast folding/unfolding (well under 20 seconds when you get the hang of it) and tiny folded space. The steering is quick, but they are fine for riding a few miles around London. I absolutely loved my T5 when I commuted to work (mix of a few miles of cycling and train).
I work from home now, so sold the Brompton. Oh, and that's the other great thing about them. After 5 years of daily use, I sold it for £200 less than I paid for it! They just don't depreciate.
Ben
I work from home now, so sold the Brompton. Oh, and that's the other great thing about them. After 5 years of daily use, I sold it for £200 less than I paid for it! They just don't depreciate.
Ben
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professorlandslide
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Russell wrote:
Your experiences seem to be smilar to mine re ride quality etc. I also have the 'problem' that I cannot get on with straight bars (please, no-one suggest bar ends!) so would like to modify any folder to take drops or lo-pro style (or even On-One Midge), however most folders now fold the bars between the frame fold meaning any bar that is not straight will interfere with the fold. Your choice of the Kalkoff is shown on Wiggle with the bars between the frame but is that because the front wheel is turned 180deg?
The Speed Pro TT is the only one so far that meets the requirement.
Midges rule on folders. The fold is compromised but still able to get in the luggage area on a Worst Late Western 125...
In the 26" market the Dahon Cadenza is good choice for a bit off-road as is the Dahon Jack. The ZERO G would be my top choice though. The major drawback is that they don't fold into a small package.
An Airnimal Rhino is an attractive proposition, but v expensive. Other 20" folders can be adapted (knobbly tyres etc), but they're compromised on anything technical. The fully suspended Jetstream P8 is probably the best in the 20" market.
In the 18" market you could go for Birdy on light trails, but not much else.
Bromptons can be adapted, but they would not be anyhwere near the top of my list.
An Airnimal Rhino is an attractive proposition, but v expensive. Other 20" folders can be adapted (knobbly tyres etc), but they're compromised on anything technical. The fully suspended Jetstream P8 is probably the best in the 20" market.
In the 18" market you could go for Birdy on light trails, but not much else.
Bromptons can be adapted, but they would not be anyhwere near the top of my list.
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philw
Re: The Reluctant Folder
glueman wrote:Folders, from the little I know of them, are the hellish spawn of [...] a man who thinks lugs like the Norwegian coast on a diamond frame is as good as it gets.
I know where you're coming from.
I wrote my views on the subject elsewhere ("This chap didn't seem to get on with his:", above somewhere). But Bromptons seem to be fine and dandy "shopper" bikes, it's just that I don't really want to ride the road on something which to me is designed for pavement cycle paths. I also don't want to ride it on a downhill park machine (fat wheels, suspension..). So that means most folders aren't even on my list, although I've ridden a few just to be sure.
The Airnimal Joey was a revelation... pretty close to a pretty reasonable road bike when set up right. I'd like the "proper" handlebars of the Chameleon, but I don't need the suspension thing, so this works just fine.
I think the main thing with any bike, but especially these, is to ride the thing before parting with any cash.
Then there's theft of bikes locked up.
That always worries me. I will lock it to the train if I have to, but generally I get "my" seat which allows me to keep an eye on the machine.
Most offices I visit I have no problem persuading the front desk to let me park my bike behind their desk where they can keep it warm or safe.
The only noticeable exception I can remember was BT's head office (I'm a shareholder...). I got through the front defence ok, but I couldn't get into their cycle store. In the end I left my machine in their "multi-faith room" (!). I did take damage from their security guys when I picked it up again, but I was saved by the chap I was visiting, who told them (I kid you not) that the cycle was an integral part of my faith.
I think you could do a hundred in four on a Joey no problem, although lack of guards would make you unpopular and I'm not quite perverted enough to bother trying.