Correct spindle length for Alivio

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meic
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Re: Correct spindle length for Alivio

Postby meic » 21 Mar 2013, 10:01am

It is quite plausible that while a 110mm axle will work fine on many frames, that with a thicker seatube, the front derailleur will be further out and unable to work properly unless a longer axle is used.

Personally I will be happier with as short an axle as I can get to work on my bike, as it keeps the chainline better for the lowest gears (where I spent most of my time).

That said (113-110)/2 is a very small 1.5mm and not worth worrying about (but I still prefer the shorter if it that is the only difference.)
Yma o Hyd

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horizon
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Re: Correct spindle length for Alivio

Postby horizon » 21 Mar 2013, 10:11am

meic wrote:It is quite plausible that while a 110mm axle will work fine on many frames, that with a thicker seatube, the front derailleur will be further out and unable to work properly unless a longer axle is used.

Personally I will be happier with as short an axle as I can get to work on my bike, as it keeps the chainline better for the lowest gears (where I spent most of my time).

That said (113-110)/2 is a very small 1.5mm and not worth worrying about (but I still prefer the shorter if it that is the only difference.)


I suppose the problem is that Shimano have to second-guess what the conditions are like on the bike. It would help a little if they explained a bit more what all their codes mean (there was a thread on here about this) so that one could then make an intelligent decision. What has been good about the (not inconsiderable) time I have invested in this (and other people's time as well :) ) is actually understanding the different parameters and issues which will make future installations much better. The joy of cycle repairs and all that .... :D
I have two doctors, my left leg and my right leg. (G. M. Trevelyan)
PS I always wondered why the YHA HQ was called Trevelyan House. :)

Brucey
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Re: Correct spindle length for Alivio

Postby Brucey » 21 Mar 2013, 10:38am

the limiting factors to reducing chainline are front mech throw and chainstay clearance. Both vary with the frame, and the former varies with mech as well.

If it helps, any time you want to run a triple on a tighter chainline than stock (road) chainline, I would say that you need to

a) be very careful with your frame choice (chainstay clearnace)
b) use a frame with a small dia seat tube
c) look to use a (carefully chosen) bottom swing front mech. Top swing ones never allow very tight chainlines IME.

I have one bike with a tight chainline on a triple and it was a nightmare to set up, even though I'd used a similar setup before on a steel frame with standard tube sizes. The reason was that the new frame was Aluminium, and the seat tube was ~3mm larger diameter, reducing the front mech throw by 1.5mm. This made all the difference, in a bad way.

cheers
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reohn2
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Re: Correct spindle length for Alivio

Postby reohn2 » 21 Mar 2013, 11:53am

horizon wrote:It originally came with a Shimano C210 8 speed to match the original chainset. I don't know yet whether it will be compatible (with or without adjustment). Otherwise it will be new Alivio front mech. I'm happy with Alivio at the moment then will make a long term decision as to whether to upgrade the whole lot to Deore and shift the Alivio to another bike that I have in mind. The shifters are Shimano bar end 8 speed (which I like). I'm not bothered about upgrading to 9 speed.

You may need to upgrade the f/mech to an Alivio or better that suits the chainring sizes but I'd try theC210 first.It may need to be moved down the seatube if the chainrings are smaller and will most likely need the limit screws adjusting to accommodate the different chainline.
Of course the friction b/end front changer will work with any mech so no worries there.
If you upgrade the whole front drivetrain to Deore a matched c/set and f/mech will of course be better still.
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Sweep
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Re: Correct spindle length for Alivio

Postby Sweep » 11 Feb 2014, 4:09pm

Yes I know it's an old thread but slightly unresolved.

Any report back on your experiences with this issue Horizon?

I ask because I'm now having issues with my front mech which I need to get to the bottom of.

So, in short, which spindle length did you go for and how did it all go?
Sweep

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horizon
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Re: Correct spindle length for Alivio

Postby horizon » 11 Feb 2014, 4:39pm

Sweep wrote:Any report back on your experiences with this issue Horizon?

I ask because I'm now having issues with my front mech which I need to get to the bottom of.

So, in short, which spindle length did you go for and how did it all go?


Fine. :D At least it did when I worked out why the old BB spindle length for my old Alivio was 123 (approx) and the new needed to be 113. It all came down to the way the actual chainsets are constructed and therefore where they sit in relation to the BB and chainstay. The old Alivio was actually a different model from my new one (I think because it took a chainring guard though I'm not certain).

The new Alivio 22/32/42 actually went on my Sardar and replaced the old Truvativ 48/36/26. I adjusted the Front mech downwards and measured across the chainrings using a steel rule. I cannot remember for the life of me where I found this out but someone on here will know - all worked perfectly as far as I could see.
I have two doctors, my left leg and my right leg. (G. M. Trevelyan)
PS I always wondered why the YHA HQ was called Trevelyan House. :)

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Sweep
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Re: Correct spindle length for Alivio

Postby Sweep » 11 Feb 2014, 5:03pm

Many thanks for the reply Horizon.

I'll tinker with the bike when I'm reunited with it and I have a new mech I should probably fit anyway.

I may swap the BB at the same time to a 113 spindle.

Are you happy with the Alivio chainset?
Sweep

markfh
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Re: Correct spindle length for Alivio

Postby markfh » 11 Feb 2014, 5:16pm

Just to follow up on Horizon's post, Shimano do two square taper models of the Alivio 8 speed chainset/crankset the FC-M10 and the FC-M411. For a 50mm chainline the FC-M410 uses a 113mm square taper bottom bracket and the FC-M411 uses a square taper 123mm bottom bracket. The details are given appropriate Shimano Service Instruction (http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/SI/Alivio-Acera/SI_0094A/SI-0094A-001-ENG_v1_m56577569830667768.PDF).

Over the years I have managed to acquire both a FC-M410 and an FC-M411 crankset/chainset and when you put them side by side the difference between the position of the chain rings relative to the square taper fitting is readily apparent.

Just to confuse things further the FC-M410 appears to be only available as a 42-32-22 whereas the FC-M411 is available as a 48-38-28 or a 42-32-22.

Also consulting the Shimano exploded view documents for the two models (http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/EV/bikecomponents/FC/EV-FC-M410-2465A_v1_m56577569830608877.pdf and http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/EV/bikecomponents/FC/EV-FC-M411-2466C_v1_m56577569830724278.pdf respectively) shows that whilst for the 42-32-22 variant they both use same chain rings for the inner and middle chain rings the part number of the outer chain ring is different. I think this is because for the FC-M411 the peg to stop the chain dropping down the gap between the outer chain ring and the crank is longer. It also appears that whilst the right hand crank arm is different between the FC-M410 and the FC-M411 the left hand crank arm is the same for the two models although the FC-M411 also has a "Neutral Silver" variant.

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Sweep
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Re: Correct spindle length for Alivio

Postby Sweep » 11 Feb 2014, 5:58pm

Thanks for that markhf

(I think :) as it does sound like a minefield.

I'm pretty sure, because I looked into things at the time, even though unaware of the M411 that it's the M410 that I have.

I no longer have the order records from Chain Reaction though - will there be a mark of some sort on the item?

(I don't have the bike with me at the moment)

I'm hopeful that I can sort the changing problem (problem getting down into the small ring) as it is recent - worked fine until a while ago.
Sweep

markfh
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Re: Correct spindle length for Alivio

Postby markfh » 11 Feb 2014, 6:48pm

Both of the Alivio chainsets I have checked have a small sticker on the inside on the right hand crank arm with the appropriate model number. The left hand crank arms are marked with both model numbers.

In the absence of of a sticker, you can either check the length of the peg on the outer chain ring next to the crank arm or the position of the plastic protector inside the inner chain ring relative to the inner face of the crank arm next to the spare taper hole.

For a 42 tooth outer chain ring on an FC-M410 the peg on the outer chain ring is approximately 6mm long. For a 48 tooth outer chain ring on a FC-M411 the peg on the outer chain ring is approximately 14 mm long. I suspect that the peg on a 42 outer chain ring on a FC-M411 will be a similar lenght but I do not have one to check.

For the FC-M410 the inner face of the crank arm next to the spare taper hole is virtually level with the inner face of the plastic protector inside the inner chain ring whereas for the FC-M411 the inner face of the crank arm next to the spare taper hole is approximately 5mm below the inner face of the plastic protector inside the inner chain ring.