Cycling UK Forum

The basic maintainence of a bike I can do but I'm now devling into the murky waters of mixing and matching components.

Being well out of my depth I'm looking for some help....!

My current set up is....

TA Cyclotouriste triple chainset, 26/36/46
Shimano 600 downtube shifters
Shimano 600 FD
and its a 6 speed

I'd like to upgrade to some Campag ergo shifters - I was thinking 9 speed - obviously I'd have to get a new rear derailleur but I have a few questions before I start buying parts....

1. Can I keep the chainset and FD if I change to the 9 speed shifters?
2. if not will I have to go the whole hog and change the chainset and FD as well?
3. Will a 9 speed chain be OK on the current chainset?

I know I'll need some new wheels and possibly spread the rear OLN to 130 but thats all depending on what the good members of CTC might recommend...

I'm sure there are lots of things I haven't thought of and if you can suggest anything else I might need to do then I'm open to suggestions...

Thanks.

Peawet

You can't buy 9 speed campag ergo's new - they stopped making them a few years ago, though you might be able to find somewhere that has some old stock.

Thanks for the reply - I'd hoped to find some 9 speed ones on ebay....

Is there no one that can help me.....?

peawet wrote:1. Can I keep the chainset and FD if I change to the 9 speed shifters?
2. if not will I have to go the whole hog and change the chainset and FD as well?
3. Will a 9 speed chain be OK on the current chainset?

1. It is said that many Shimano front mechs have springs that are too strong for Ergo. Try it and see. Indexing is not a problem because you will have Ergos with lots of little clicks, so they are not truly indexed anyway.
3. 9 speed chain may not fit well on your present chainrings. Try it and see.

2. Following 1 and 3, if it doesn't work then you will have to change.

One potential problem, which would exist with your current set up, is that there is not a great deal of clearance between your big ring and the crank so the front mech might rub on the crank.

peawet wrote:Is there no one that can help me.....?

As you'll see from my Shimergo page, if you are successful in locating a set of pre-2001 9-speed Ergopowers that are not worn out already by now, the right one will correctly index a standard Shimano rear mech on a 6-speed cassette, and the left control will work pretty much any front mech and chainset.

But when you have to renew almost any other part of that setup, you'll be into a wholesale throw it all away and start again situation.

EDIT: I mean you keep everything else the same, same wheel same 6-speed cassette and by the way you'll NOT want a 9-speed chain, stick with 6, 7 or 8-speed chain (the wider the better to avoid fallinging into the gap and jamming between your old TA rings).

1. Cyclotouriste chainsets have the crank arm too close to the big ring for most modern front mechs - the crank arm fouls the mech before the chain shifts onto the big ring. If you keep the chainset, you'll have to either keep the front mech or find one with a similarly narrow cage.

2. If you increase the number of sprockets beyond 7, you'll have to get the rear end of the frame cold set from 126mm to 130mm wide. It is possible to just spring the frame apart, but it make replacing the wheel into one of those awkward "really need 3 hands" jobs. 7-speed may be either 130mm or 126mm depending on which hub you get.

10-speed ergo levers will shift a shimano rear mech over an 8 or 9 speed Shimano cassette, depending on how the cable is clamped, and will probably be OK on your current front mech provided you don't get one of the "quickshift" (QS) models which don't have fine trim. They will be easier to find than 9-speed. I'm using 2003 Chorus levers with an Ultegra front mech, and that works OK. I would imagine that it's the MTB front mechs that give most problems with over-strong springs.

AFAIK you can still buy most of the wearing parts for early ergos, including nine speed indexing parts. So a worn (or just wrong type) set of ergos can be refurbed to some extent.

If the front mech force is too high with ergos, you can make a little bracket (or buy/adapt a campag part for the purpose) which elongates the arm slightly. This will lower the cable tension required.

I agree with CJ re the chain/chainset issues, but I'm not sure you will be in a 'bin it' situation should any of the parts wear; it'll just require a little effort to sort things out.

Roughly;

front mech- if replaced, need careful choice because of crank clearance; bulgy outer side plate is a no-no.
rear mech- if replaced, buy a shimano nine-speed one and use an 8speed chain in it. Will work just fine. (or go 8s as below)
6s freehub sprockets. Buy an 8s cluster, remove the end of the large spline on each cog, and fit using 6s spacers and top cog to 6s body, or HG top cog/lockring if body is compatible (some are). Failing that, replace freehub body with 7s HG one and fit 6 sprockets with various spacers (or 7 sprockets at 6s spacing on an 8s body maybe..?) .

If you wish to change to 8s (say) later on then a campag mech, 8s ergo index wheel and 8s cluster (with a small mod to the mech cable mount) will work fine, Alternatively fit 8from9 on a freehub at 9s spacing and use a campag rear mech.

With either of the above you can keep a shimano rear mech if you use it with a travel agent device. As Andrew points out above, maybe going straight to 8s or 9s is a good route too?

My own view is that he benefits of ergos/STis are somewhat overblown for touring purposes; a set of Kelly's Takeoffs and your extant friction/index levers will work quite well. Modern chains and sprockets shift very well without indexing...

cheers

Wow - thanks all for the replies, very helpful indeed!

I'm going to have a look at the various cost implications of the different options and then it's decision making time...!

At the moment, given what seems to be a hugely complicated alternative, I'm leaning towards taking a full Tiagra triple groupset off another bike and lobbing it on the new/old frame....

My 9 speed Veloce Ergos started out running in 2003 with 8 speed Shimano cassette, Veloce 9sp medium mech and Ultegra triple front mech. (Ghost shift at bottom end)

I then upgraded to run 9 speed all the way, same mechs

Then put a silly chainring range on 52/39/26, same levers, same mechs

Finally putting the 9speed out to grass as i'm going 10 speed but the left hand lever pivot mount got broken anyway - er back in 2008 i think

My 10 speed Veloce set up will still keep the 9sp rear mech and Ultegra front at least for this year

The non indexed lh lever is very forgiving, much more than the Tiagra on one of my other bikes, not had any issues with too strong springs, in fact they could help on my set up.

I'd really like to go with Campag as I've got it on my Roberts and much prefer it to the shimano that I'd had before but....

.... the bank manager (AKA Mrs Peawet) is more enthusiastic to save money for a deposit for a house rather than spend it on bike stuff. I've got the shimano gears on a spare bike and if I sell off all the older parts from this frame then I'm sure to at least look like I'm saving money.....!

The bike is actually her's and the only reason I'm doing this is that she has decided against the downtube shifters and much prefers the STi shifters on her old bike.

If anyone out there wants to swap our Gitane 1500 triple 52cm with full Tiagra groupset for a well cared for 8/9/10 speed campag triple group then feel free to get in touch!

oh and another reason I'd really like to put campag on there is that her new bike is a Mercian and the Italian components would do the frame some sort of justice....

Old front mechs should cope, they have flat outer cages. I have a very elderly Record front mech on my 28, 38,48 triple. Same spaces as yours, and it shifts much more sweetly than the Comp triple mech it replaced. No idea why, its moved by 10 speed Ergos.

foxyrider wrote:My 9 speed Veloce Ergos started out running in 2003 with ... BIG SNIP ... not had any issues with too strong springs [in Shimano mechs].

This problem, referred to by several posters, is a problem only with newer 'Ultrashift' Ergopower shifters and was a real problem only with the version prior to current. That had such weak detents that ghost shifting* also happened with some of Campag's own front mechs, so they upped the tension a bit. That, at least, is my reading of the situation.

*Ghost shifting is when the mech spring overcomes the detent/friction in the shifter, and spontaneously shifts to the next gear. It doesn't happen immediately, friction in the cable helps to keep things as they are, but flexing of the bike fidgets the cable in the direction the mech is pulling - unless the shifter has a strong enough detent to stop that.

I am running three-year-old Veloce Ultrashift Ergos (which I think are just recent enough to be current and not the previous real softies). The right control shifts 9-speed Shimano (Hubbub modified) rear mech just fine, no tendency to ghost shift at all. The detents in the left control however, are a bit too soft to hold against the spring in a Tiagra front mech. But that's not all: the left Ultrashift control pulls a lot more cable per click than pre-Ultrashift Ergos, which doesn't enable one to trim this mech's position (since it's designed for a shorter cable pull) or even match up the clicks near enough with the rings. In one click it goes from chain rub on one side of the cage to chain rub on the other. Both problems are solved by fixing Campag's Ultrashift Front Mech Cable Plate (see this post) onto the Shimano mech. This effectively makes the mech's arm about 1/5 longer, so it moves 1/4 less far per click and pulls the cable 1/4 less strongly. Having now measured it (a year after making the modification) I am surprised how little different that is, because it's enough to make ALL the difference: the movement is just small enough to enable trimming and no more ghost shifts.

CJ wrote:

foxyrider wrote:My 9 speed Veloce Ergos started out running in 2003 with ... BIG SNIP ... not had any issues with too strong springs [in Shimano mechs].

This problem, referred to by several posters, is a problem only with newer 'Ultrashift' Ergopower shifters and was a real problem only with the version prior to current. That had such weak detents that ghost shifting* also happened with some of Campag's own front mechs, so they upped the tension a bit. That, at least, is my reading of the situation.

*Ghost shifting is when the mech spring overcomes the detent/friction in the shifter, and spontaneously shifts to the next gear. It doesn't happen immediately, friction in the cable helps to keep things as they are, but flexing of the bike fidgets the cable in the direction the mech is pulling - unless the shifter has a strong enough detent to stop that.

I am running three-year-old Veloce Ultrashift Ergos (which I think are just recent enough to be current and not the previous real softies). The right control shifts 9-speed Shimano (Hubbub modified) rear mech just fine, no tendency to ghost shift at all. The detents in the left control however, are a bit too soft to hold against the spring in a Tiagra front mech. But that's not all: the left Ultrashift control pulls a lot more cable per click than pre-Ultrashift Ergos, which doesn't enable one to trim this mech's position (since it's designed for a shorter cable pull) or even match up the clicks near enough with the rings. In one click it goes from chain rub on one side of the cage to chain rub on the other. Both problems are solved by fixing Campag's Ultrashift Front Mech Cable Plate (see this post) onto the Shimano mech. This effectively makes the mech's arm about 1/5 longer, so it moves 1/4 less far per click and pulls the cable 1/4 less strongly. Having now measured it (a year after making the modification) I am surprised how little different that is, because it's enough to make ALL the difference: the movement is just small enough to enable trimming and no more ghost shifts.

Hi Chris, I am hoping that my Veloce 10 speed Ultrashift Ergos are the same as yours, I was told they were 2010 model when I bought them. However on another thread it was stated that Ultrashift may not be compatible with triples, either at all, or only if specified, I cannot quite understand what they are trying to say and I did not think that Campag had gone down the same route of double or triple specific LH brifters as Shimano: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=77274#p677666

Also I was under the impression that a Shimano MTB front mech would be OK with them, but then maybe the return spring will be too strong? I know I could just suck it and see, but if they are not going to work I would rather keep the Ergos and nice full set of Campag cables brand new in the box so I can sell them on for the best price and think again re shifting (probably bar ends will be the simplest solution).