Dawes Galaxy -v- Raleigh Randonneur

[Zanda]

Here is a link showing the relevant page of the Raleigh Special products catalogue for 1993. It shows the Randonneur with the cursive script style decal but with a 531 type tubing, rather than 708.

The same site shows that by 1998, the frames were welded, not lugged and brazed.

http://www.retrobike.co.uk/gallery2/v/M ... 0.jpg.html

[andrew_s]

Thread necromancy alert, 5 years after the previous post.

Anyway, I had a 1984 Galaxy and a 1989 Randonneur (531ST, grey with white head tube), and can only agree with the original post :

the Raleigh is a dream to ride compared to the Galaxy, with a much softer and more comfortable ride

The flip side was that the Randonneur wasn't really stiff enough, and could flex considerably under a heavy load, as I discovered when a companion's rim started to split, and I had to add his well stuffed Karrimor Iberians to my Ortlieb front rollers and rackpack. Subsequent experience led me to realise that it's not really a problem - after a couple of days you get used to the flex and cease to notice it.

[Clipper_2018]

A mere 13 years later ...

@snibco, what you have there is a Raleigh "Type 8807 - Touring 531ST", which was sold on a frame-only basis, onto which the original owner would have added his own chioce of components - either as a new build or to replace a damaged frame.

The Type 8807 was, in all but paint, identical to the contemporary Royal. It lacks the (later) Randonneur's chain-stay pips for carrying spare spokes. The "champange with bronze" decor was unique to the Type 8807.

Judging by the very few Type 8807s that have appeared on the web over the years, they must have sold in very small numbers.

Do you still have it?

Came with fittings for front and rear racks. Paintwork is original. I've never seen any rust, but it could be hidden beneath the dirt!

Any insights would be welcome.

[djnotts]

"A mere 13 years later ..." and 7 years since snibco has been seen on the Forum!

[peetee]

"A mere 13 years later ..." and 7 years since snibco has been seen on the Forum!

True but these bikes last well and there are plenty around still. Also, as I found out when looking into the provenance of my unusual Raleigh, information on the marque and it’s companion brands is scattered to the four corners of T’internetshire. Any info that individuals can add to the Raleigh soup is helpful to a potential bike purchaser and those, like me, with an interest in the company.

[colin54]

A mere 13 years later ...

@snibco, what you have there is a Raleigh "Type 8807 - Touring 531ST", which was sold on a frame-only basis, onto which the original owner would have added his own chioce of components - either as a new build or to replace a damaged frame.

Clipper & peetee, there was quite a bit of info in this thread about these 8807 frames ( and Royals and Randonneurs), with links to catalogues etc :-
viewtopic.php?t=143966

[markjohnobrien]

A mere 13 years later ...

@snibco, what you have there is a Raleigh "Type 8807 - Touring 531ST", which was sold on a frame-only basis, onto which the original owner would have added his own chioce of components - either as a new build or to replace a damaged frame.

Clipper & peetee, there was quite a bit of info in this thread about these 8807 frames ( and Royals and Randonneurs), with links to catalogues etc :-
viewtopic.php?t=143966

Thanks for the link - I had a period away from the forum and must have missed it.

[markjohnobrien]

One piece of information that I’m sure most of you will know is about the Reynolds 708 tubing used in the later light blue and last model red Randonneur (with Magura hydraulic rim brakes).

It’s well known that it was internally rifled with 8 ribs giving extra strength and that only Peugeot (for race bikes) and Raleigh (for touring bikes) used in great numbers. The Raleigh touring tubing was custom made for Raleigh only being their take on a comfortable frame set but with oversized top tube for greater rigidity under heavy loads (therefore, improving on the earlier 531ST Randonneurs),

However, it always bugged me that while people surmised that 708 was heat treated, there was no definitive answer on what tubing was heat treated.

Reynolds were very helpful in answering my questions and while most of their records from this period are no longer held, Keith Noronha very helpfully replied that Reynolds 708 was heat treated 531.

The irony is that I’d bought a Randonneur 708 from a chap who hated the fact that it wasn’t 531, had placed 531 decals on the frame, unbeknown that it was a modified 531.

Sorry if this is a rambling post but I thought I’d posted this ages ago.

[peetee]

One piece of information that I’m sure most of you will know is about the Reynolds 708 tubing used in the later light blue and last model red Randonneur (with Magura hydraulic rim brakes).

It’s well known that it was internally rifled with 8 ribs giving extra strength and that only Peugeot (for race bikes) and Raleigh (for touring bikes) used in great numbers. The Raleigh touring tubing was custom made for Raleigh only being their take on a comfortable frame set but with oversized top tube for greater rigidity under heavy loads (therefore, improving on the earlier 531ST Randonneurs),

However, it always bugged me that while people surmised that 708 was heat treated, there was no definitive answer on what tubing was heat treated.

Reynolds were very helpful in answering my questions and while most of their records from this period are no longer held, Keith Noronha very helpfully replied that Reynolds 708 was heat treated 531.

The irony is that I’d bought a Randonneur 708 from a chap who hated the fact that it wasn’t 531, had placed 531 decals on the frame, unbeknown that it was a modified 531.

Sorry if this is a rambling post but I thought I’d posted this ages ago.

My understanding of the development of 708 is a little different.
Strictly speaking, 708 was not rifled. The internal shaping was a conventional curved internal structure interspersed with 8 flat sections (imaging a thin layer of sediment in a pipe and repeat it 8 times around the diameter with bare pipe showing between each).
531 tubing is the basis for 653, 753 and 708. The composition of elements is identical (chromium manganese molybdenum steel), it is the heat treatment and drawing process that varies.
Many Reynolds tube sets were developed with the cooperation of Raleigh.
708 tube sets were internally shaped (as described) on the main tubes only. However, I have a Raleigh cyclo-cross frameset that suggests the development process of the tubing experimented with internal shaping in other tubes too. I have documented that on this forum.

[markjohnobrien]

One piece of information that I’m sure most of you will know is about the Reynolds 708 tubing used in the later light blue and last model red Randonneur (with Magura hydraulic rim brakes).

It’s well known that it was internally rifled with 8 ribs giving extra strength and that only Peugeot (for race bikes) and Raleigh (for touring bikes) used in great numbers. The Raleigh touring tubing was custom made for Raleigh only being their take on a comfortable frame set but with oversized top tube for greater rigidity under heavy loads (therefore, improving on the earlier 531ST Randonneurs),

However, it always bugged me that while people surmised that 708 was heat treated, there was no definitive answer on what tubing was heat treated.

Reynolds were very helpful in answering my questions and while most of their records from this period are no longer held, Keith Noronha very helpfully replied that Reynolds 708 was heat treated 531.

The irony is that I’d bought a Randonneur 708 from a chap who hated the fact that it wasn’t 531, had placed 531 decals on the frame, unbeknown that it was a modified 531.

Sorry if this is a rambling post but I thought I’d posted this ages ago.

My understanding of the development of 708 is a little different.
Strictly speaking, 708 was not rifled. The internal shaping was a conventional curved internal structure interspersed with 8 flat sections (imaging a thin layer of sediment in a pipe and repeat it 8 times around the diameter with bare pipe showing between each).
531 tubing is the basis for 653, 753 and 708. The composition of elements is identical (chromium manganese molybdenum steel), it is the heat treatment and drawing process that varies.
Many Reynolds tube sets were developed with the cooperation of Raleigh.
708 tube sets were internally shaped (as described) on the main tubes only. However, I have a Raleigh cyclo-cross frameset that suggests the development process of the tubing experimented with internal shaping in other tubes too. I have documented that on this forum.

My wording was not as accurate or precise as it could have been and I agree with your first paragraph as it does have 8 sections and I also agree that this profiling on 708 tube sets was on the main tubes.

Fascinating to hear about your cyclo cross bike.

[slowster]

It was Columbus SLX and SPX that had 'rifling', or more correctly helical ribs.

Cross section of 708 is shown in the image below. As I understood it, 753 and 708 are the same alloy, and both required low temperature silver solder brazing. That 753 tubes are heat treated 531 is something I have read elsewhere, but I presume that the tubes used for 753 would have been subject to more careful drawing/butting/quality control, given the thinner tube profiles.

That begs the question what was 653, which I think was not heat treated and did not need silver soldering. Maybe it was just very thin wall 531, which was what 531 Pro tubes were. I think both were considered only suitable for lightweight/race use, and were a poor man's 753.

[Jdsk]

...
That begs the question what was 653, which I think was not heat treated and did not need silver soldering. Maybe it was just very thin wall 531, which was what 531 Pro tubes were. I think both were considered only suitable for lightweight/race use, and were a poor man's 753.
...

viewtopic.php?t=109012

Jonathan

[peetee]

653 was indeed a poor man’s 753. At least, the intention was to bridge the price gap between the two tube sets which was quite substantial. They did this by varying the heat-treating across the frame with only the rear stays receiving ‘753 spec’ heat-treatment.
IIRC, there was a time when a finished bespoke frame in 531 would set you back £200 while a 753 was more like £300.
I’m not sure the gauges stayed constant through the years but 531c has slightly thicker gauge than the more expensive options. Those were 531 Pro, 653 and 753 that were all very similar gauge, if not identical gauges, comparing tube to tube.

[pwa]

Some people reckoned that 753 was stiffer than 653. I don't know if that is true. Contrary to what some say, some steel does flex more than other steel, so it is conceivable. And some have criticised 753 for giving a harsh ride. But the main way of making a tube stiffer is to make it larger diameter. As far as I am aware, 753 and 531 have the same chemistry but different treatment. 753 is heat treated 531. 653 is a tubeset using tubes of 753 and tubes of 531.

[Chat Noir]

Interesting old thread.

To help clarify things, here is a page from the 1991 Reynolds catalogue, showing all 3 tube sets. The tubes in the 753 and 653 tube sets had identical gauges and shared the same seat and chain stays and steering column with 708 - silver solder was recommended for the chain stays. The difference was the heat treatment.

Reynolds described 653 like this in the same catalogue:

1987 Another first for Reynolds. The launch of 653. This tube set was the first available to builders with variable strength tubes. These strengths are specially designed for the professional racer and 653 is a new concept in obtaining strength and stiffness where it is needed most in the frame geometry.

For added interest, Reynolds published the following tube set weights (56 cm frame):

753 1650 gms
531 Pro 1700
531 Competition 1800
531 ST 1935

Don't have a catalogue with weight for 653 but assume identical to 753 - hope people able to see the detail in the attachment, not posted for a while, can't get this any bigger.