Oil instead of grease?

[Mick F]

It's been mentioned before .............

I'm unwilling.

The thing is, I cut my teeth on chain maintenance when commuting in the 80s and 90s. I used Sedisport chains and tried all sorts of lubricants and cleaning methods. At first, I had no idea! I read magazines and articles and finally realised that chain lubes needed to be Non-Sticky. Also, you needed a spotless chain to start with - including removing the "grease" that came on the chain when brand new.

Eventually, I found - by recommendation - that LPS3 was the best thing since sliced bread. It sprayed on and dried to a thick non-sticky but greasy film and I found that regular application and regular cleaning prolonged the life of my chains. Meanwhile, I got through dozens of Suntour Ultra sprockets and dozens of Sedisport chains.

You live and learn.

Nowadays, with modern technology and the internet, I found White Lightning CR. It does what it says on the bottle and what it says on the website, and the combination of Campag chains and cassettes give me the longevity I longed for way-back-when. I can afford the good stuff now but back in the 80s and 90s we were on the bones of our wotsits. and I had to get along as best I could with bike bits and spares. Bike maintenance costs time and money.

I've tried ProLink Gold and White Lightning Epic Ride and Wet Ride, and found them wanting.
Why?
Coz they leave the chain dirty and oily and if you touch the chain, your hands are dirty. This leaves me to believe that if the chain is dirty, there must be grit in there. Compare that to WL CR. If you touch my chain, your fingers will come away clean.

It works for me.
My chains last an inordinately long time, I've never worn out a cassette, and anyone who sees my bike is in awe how clean the transmission is. Honestly, ask them. There are a few members on here who have seen my Mercian.

Remember, I've had that bike - well, frame - for 27years and it's had all sorts of reincarnations in that time. For most of its early years I couldn't get a chain and some sprockets to last six months.

I'm unwilling to go away from a wining formula.
£100ish for a cassette and £30ish for a chain are expensive outlays. My way works for them and I'm unwilling to upset my apple-cart.

[Brucey]

I guess I can understand that; however to wear a cassette, the chain has to be dirty or prematurely worn. If either situation arose I am supposing you would notice and stop the test prematurely before it did any real harm....?

I happen to think that wax-based lubes have a lot going for them, but also that there may be something in the use of an EP lubricant such as is claimed to be in the Extreme Purple.

I've not used it myself (hence my ignorance on the subject of what is in it) but maybe Ian can comment on how clean it is in use?

cheers

[Urticaria]

Both oils and greases can be loaded up with other additives ( EP additives, solid lubricants etc) which do change the lubrication properties especially at high loads and low speeds

Do axle bearings on a bicycle ever operate in the EHD regime? Could they be made to?

[Brucey]

if the balls are large enough, the load (preload plus service load) is low enough, and the lubricant viscosity and running speed are high enough, I think that true EHD running is possible.

However, even in non-EHD mode it is not that the bearing is doomed to a short life, it is more that the bearing cannot have a long life and sustain a high load. At low loads the bearing life is still OK. So the saving grace for normal conditions may be that the average service loads (in hubs, say) are actually quite small. Thus (provided the bearings are adjusted correctly -which is admittedly surprisingly rare- ) there may be no hard contact much of the time, and therefore relatively little wear.

In the true EHD regime the load bearing capacity of the bearing is increased by a large factor (x3 to x10 typically IIRC) but this probably means that the bearing stays in EHD mode even when it sees spiky loads from bumps in the road etc. The rest of the time (at lower speeds) because the loading may be low, it may only be those spiky loads which cause any hard contact and thus might cause wear. The use of lubricants with EP additives and solid lubricants should mitigate the effects of any hard contact, hence 'happy bearings' can even look smoother than they did to start with after a period of use, despite some contact and wear.

However other bearings on bicycles are just too compromised by design. Many pedal bearings and bottom bracket bearings see far higher loads than hub bearings and are usually turning more slowly, too. No surprise that these are the ones that seem to wear first on many bicycles.

cheers

[andrewjoseph]

I did this review some time ago.

http://www.ba-joseph.co.uk/mtb/reviews/ ... treme.html

[Mick F]

Over a tenner for 120ml of Purple, is more than twice the price of WL Clean Ride for twice the size bottle.
Is it better than twice as good?
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/purple-extreme- ... lubricant/
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/white-lightning ... ml-bottle/


Thanks for the review BTW!

[Brucey]

as noted in an earlier post, it appears that if you buy the 'max-chain' motorcycle chain lube version, it works out around half the cost per fl.oz.

cheers

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

I have yet to find any testing which actually claims to have measured chain life with and without this chain lube; could be a job for someone there....
cheers

Yes the lack of factual test but lots of opinions and marketing.
I believe there are methods and lubes better than mine but I remain in the camp of cheap consumables.

[NATURAL ANKLING]

I've tried ProLink Gold and White Lightning Epic Ride and Wet Ride, and found them wanting.
Why?
Coz they leave the chain dirty and oily and if you touch the chain, your hands are dirty. This leaves me to believe that if the chain is dirty, there must be grit in there. Compare that to WL CR. If you touch my chain, your fingers will come away clean.

Black or coloured does'nt always mean useless, how often do you change your car oil.

It works for me.
My chains last an inordinately long time, I've never worn out a cassette, and anyone who sees my bike is in awe how clean the transmission is. Honestly, ask them. There are a few members on here who have seen my Mercian.

Some of us commute and ride when its raining, mud too, the real world.

Remember, I've had that bike - well, frame - for 27years and it's had all sorts of reincarnations in that time. For most of its early years I couldn't get a chain and some sprockets to last six months.

You must be talking of the seventies and freewheels.

I'm unwilling to go away from a wining formula.
£100ish for a cassette and £30ish for a chain are expensive outlays. My way works for them and I'm unwilling to upset my apple-cart.

Now most of us could keep several bikes going for several years on that.
Its a pity that Campagnolo stuff does'nt give value for money, I am in the opinion that more is not always better.
If I spent £ 130 at the local recycling centre on 7 speed bikes and bits I recon that I could cycle for ten years and not spend a penny.
If I used your chain cleaning method would my chain last longer............yes probably but not ten times longer, and would I really want to work for 50 p an hour Or £ 5 in your case.

[mig]

I guess I can understand that; however to wear a cassette, the chain has to be dirty or prematurely worn. If either situation arose I am supposing you would notice and stop the test prematurely before it did any real harm....?

I happen to think that wax-based lubes have a lot going for them, but also that there may be something in the use of an EP lubricant such as is claimed to be in the Extreme Purple.

I've not used it myself (hence my ignorance on the subject of what is in it) but maybe Ian can comment on how clean it is in use?

cheers

i'd say that it is only moderately clean in all fairness. i clean my chains as best as i can using a degreaser and rinse (a few degrees short of the mick F technique) then apply the stuff. the bottle does say it's best to leave overnight before use - which i usually do. i then run the chain for a couple of week's typical riding (maybe 500 miles) which gives dirty smears on fingers if the chain is touched but nothing more than that. i have found that it makes a chain run quietly - both a geared and fixed set ups - which is something i do like.
if you'd like a go with some bruce i can post you on a few fluid ounces?

[Kenn]

Mick,

Your comments on White Lightning CR are very interesting. I've considered this a few times but, having tried other expensive chain lubes and been disappointed with the results, have always gone back to using light machine oil and wiping the chain clean after every ride. Reckon I'll give it a try next time I fit new chain.

One question - do you use White lighting just on the chain or on the gear mechanisms as well?

[bazzo]

I copied this from wikipedia, I think getting the better grade bearing would be a signifcant factor in efficiency and longivety. It has absolutely nothing to do with the subject though. But the bearings you will get from the LBS are probably are probably the higher number.
Bearing balls are manufactured to a specific grade, which defines its geometric tolerances. The grades range from 2000 to 3, where the smaller the number the higher the precision. Grades are written "GXXXX", i.e. grade 100 would be "G100".[2] The grades are divided into two categories: semi-precision and precision. Grades 100 and greater are semi-precision balls and lower than that are precision balls.[3]

The specification defines three parameters: surface integrity, size, and sphericity. The surface integrity refers to surface smoothness, hardness,[4] and lack of defects, such as flats, pits, soft spots, and cuts.[3] The surface smoothness is measured in two ways: surface roughness and waviness.[4]

Size refers to how tight the tolerances are on the size, as measured by two parallel plates in contact with the ball surface.[3] The starting size is the nominal ball diameter, which is the nominal, or theoretical, ball diameter. The ball size is then determined by measuring the ball diameter variation, which is the difference between the largest and smallest diameter measurement. For a given lot there is a lot diameter variation, which is the difference between the mean diameter of the largest ball and the smallest ball of the lot.[4]

Sphericity, or deviation from spherical form,[4] refers to how much the ball deviates from a true spherical form (out of roundness).[3] This is measured by rotating a ball against a linear transducer with a gauge force of less than 4 grams (0.14 oz). The resulting polar graph is then circumscribed with the smallest circle possible and the difference between this circumscribed circle and the nominal ball diameter is the variation.[4]
Grade tolerances for inch sizes[4] Grade Size range [in] Sphericity [in] Lot diameter variation [in] Nominal ball diameter tolerance [in] Maximum surface roughness (Ra) [μin]
3 0.006–2 0.000003 0.000003 ±0.00003 0.5
5 0.006–6 0.000005 0.000005 ±0.00005 0.8
10 0.006–10 0.00001 0.00001 ±0.00005 1.0
25 0.006–10 0.000025 0.000025 ±0.0001 2.0
50 0.006–10 0.00005 0.00005 ±0.0002 3.0
100 0.006–10 0.0001 0.0001 ±0.0005 5.0
200 0.006–10 0.0002 0.0002 ±0.001 8.0
1000 0.006–10 0.001 0.001 ±0.005
Grade tolerances for metric sizes[4] Grade Sphericity [mm] Lot diameter variation [mm] Nominal ball diameter tolerance [mm] Maximum surface roughness (Ra) [µm]
3 0.00008 0.00008 ±0.0008 0.012
5 0.00013 0.00013 ±0.0013 0.02
10 0.00025 0.00025 ±0.0013 0.025
25 0.0006 0.0006 ±0.0025 0.051
50 0.0012 0.0012 ±0.0051 0.076
100 0.0025 0.0025 ±0.0381 0.127
200 0.005 0.005 ±0.025 0.203
1000 0.025 0.025 ±0.127
Manufacture

The manufacture of bearing balls depends on the type of material the balls are being made from.
Metal

Metal balls start as a wire. The wire is sheared to give a pellet with a length approximately the size of the desired ball outer diameter (OD). This pellet is then headed into a rough spherical shape. Next, the balls are then fed into a machine that de-flashes them. The machine does this by feeding the balls between two heavy cast iron[5] or hardened steel plates, called rill plates. One of the plates is held stationary while the other rotates. The top plate has an opening to allow balls to enter and exit the rill plates. These plates have fine circumferential grooves that the balls track in. The balls are run through the machine long enough so that each ball passes through many of these grooves, which ensures each ball is the same size, even if a particular groove is out of specification. The controllable machine variables are the amount of pressure applied, the speed of the plates, and how long the balls are left in the machine.[6]

During the operation coolant is pumped between the rill plates because the high pressure between the plates and friction creates considerable heat. The high pressure applied to the balls also induces cold working, which strengthens the balls.[6]

Sometimes the balls are then run through a soft grinding process afterward to improve precision. This is done in the same type of machine, but the rill plates are replaced with grinding stones.[5]

If the balls are steel they are then heat treated. After heat treatment they are descaled to remove any residue or by-products.[5]

The balls are then hard ground. They are ground in the same type of machine as used before, but either an abrasive is introduced into coolant or the rotating plate is replaced with a very hard fine-grain grinding wheel. This step can get the balls within ±0.0001 in (0.0025 mm). If the balls need more precision then they are lapped, again in the same type of machine. However, this time the rill plates are made of a softer material, usually cast iron, less pressure is applied, the plate is rotated slowly. This step is what gives bearing balls their shiny appearance and can bring the balls between grades 10 and 48.[5][6][7]

If even more precision is needed then proprietary chemical and mechanical processes are usually used.[5]

The inspection of bearing balls was one of the case studies in Frederick Winslow Taylor's classic Principles of Scientific Management.
Plastic

Plastic bearing balls are made in the same manner as described above.[6]
Ceramic

Ceramic bearing balls are made of sintered materials that are then ground to size and shape as above. Common materials include: silicon nitride and zirconium oxide.[8

[yostumpy]

anyway , back to the OP, I drilled my rear campag hub a while back, in the centre, then squirted in some ep90 gear oil, then taped the centre of axle with 3 winds of insulating tape. Works a treat, Only a slight 'wetting' of the ends of the axle as it works its way thro'. ep90 is thick oil so it wont run out like some oils.

[Mick F]

Black or coloured does'nt always mean useless, how often do you change your car oil.

I don't, and neither does the local garage much at all.
88,000miles so far from new, and the oil has been changed twice, perhaps three times .......... and never topped up. I can't even reach the dipstick it's so out of the way! The engine computer would alert me if the oil level was down ........ which it never is.

If you touch a part of your bike and your finger comes away black, what is the black?
Did you put black on there to start with?
Did you put clear lube on there initially onto a spotlessly clean chain?
Why is your chain black now?
What is the blackness?

One question - do you use White lighting just on the chain or on the gear mechanisms as well?

I don't lube the cogs or anything, just the chain.
The gear mechs don't get touched unless I fancy some fettling. Why would they need it? They are only parallelograms with a couple of chrome-plated steel pins into alu and/or carbon fibre. A drop of oil would suffice when you think about it.

The jockey wheels get pulled apart and cleaned and greased quite regularly - perhaps every couple of months, but the mechs generally get ignored.

[db8000]

Hello all

I appreciate that I am resurrecting an oldish post but it is sort of on subject. As an avid reader of this forum but not much of a contributor, I have followed the various lengthy discussions about grease (and oil). I am nearing the end of my tube of grease (after 15 years or so) and am therefore in the market...

I am not going to discuss the ins and outs of the various options, this has been done here and previously: http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=42374 and http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=73071 in particular.

Since I can't obtain Castrol SBX (a certain contributor's favourite), I have settled on Mobilith SHC PM 460, a modestly expensive but readily obtainable grease that has met with prior Board Approval. If you are going to try to talk me into something else, better make it convincing!

Blatantly but respectfully copying somebody else's idea, I'll buy a box of 12 cartridges and will happy post the spares to anybody who wants one, at cost. I'm getting them from Southern Lubricants (thanks to them) for £106.55 incl VAT and postage to me, being just under £9 per cartridge.

At current rates of use, that seems good value to me and why shouldn't I treat the bikes to some luxury....?

I'll post something in For Sale, I guess.

With thanks to previous contributors for the idea. I hope that I am not treading on anyone's toes - I hope that you have enough to keep you going anyway!

Dave.