buying advice please - Croix de fer v Specialized AWOL

[reohn2]

To stop the madness of bikes flying around in my head I was going to order a Croix de Fer size 60, but some of you think that frame is not large enough? At 1m92 or 1m93 (I am somewhere in between), the online converter tells me I am about 6'3"

And you'll probably have heel clearance problems with panniers on a rear rack and such short chainstays
Us tall people usually have big feet and prefer longer cranks .

[SamSam]

hm that is indeed something important to take into account. In the meantime I have done some proper measurements and I am 192.5 cm and my inner leg length seems to be 91 cm. Is it true when you multiply your inner leg length with 0.65 you get an idea of which frame size you'll need? Or are things like "reach" and ETT more important?

Also if a 60 cm frame is too small for me, why are the largest sizes by many brands around 60/61? For example the largest Kona Sutra is 61, largest Cinelli Hobo 61,... I am aware I am pretty large with 1m92, but some guys are even bigger

[reohn2]

SamSam

Frame size should be judged for fit by effective top tube length(ETT) which gives the right length proportionally.
Your 0.65xinside leg length isn't a bad guide to frame size if just a tiny bit on the small side.
For you size frame I'd be looking at something with a 60cm ETT,a slack 72degree seat tube angle,so you're able to get the saddle back far enough due to your long legs,plus long chainstays 45cm or more for the heel clearance mention up thread.
If your shoe size is over 48 and you intend to use cranks longer than 18cm you may encounter toe overlap with anything less than a 60cm ETT.

The largest size Croix de Fer @ 57.5cm ETT is too short,the seat tube angle is steep @73 degrees and the chainstays are too short @ 42.5cm.

[SamSam]

hm ok, fair enough.

Another question regarding the so-called versatility of some of these bikes:

Would it be possible to built the Croix de fer as a singlespeed (or even fixed gear?) if I wanted to?

The idea I have now is to buy a frame (croix de fer or something else), built it up as a singlespeed (don't need gearing for the commute and will be easier to built myself and cheaper I guess?), and later on in May convert it to a tourer. But as I am a newbie, I am not sure if it is possible to set up all these bikes as a singlespeed (croix de fer, Vaya,...)? I read it has something to do with the dropouts in the frame? Can someone educate me a little or give some hints as to which of the mentioned frames in this topic would be able to go ss? Or is it more complex than I imagine? Is it for example also necessary to change hubs and some other parts I'm not yet aware of to go from singlespeed to full on touring gear?

edit: That way I can also buy and use the amazing and strong Spa wheels some of you can't shut up about

Building a Croix de Fer (or something similar) as a singlespeed myself seems not hard to me, even as a newbie, or am I wrong?

[BrianP]

Ok, so we need a XL frame size. all rounder tourer to monster cross type, we need a frame that can be used as single speed, we need a frame that can run derailleur gears later on. Disc brakes.

That makes it easier. Not many frames fit your requirements.

The new Surly Straggler does.

It has 60, 62, and 64cm sizes. It is the new disc version of the highly regarded Crosscheck.

It has an unusual rear dropout design which emables it easily to be used single speed or with derailleur. Single speed needs a way of adjusting chain tension, usually sliding the rear axle backwards to tighten. Derailleur needs a gear hanger and a way to hold the axle in exactly the correct place for the derailleur. The Straggler can do this.

Quote from Surly site, http://surlybikes.com/bikes/straggler/bike_info

The rear dropouts are unique, too. They’re a partially closed horizontal design that accommodates singlespeed or geared drivetrains. They feature stop screws that thread in from the rear to further secure the wheel and to position the rear wheel for optimal shifting, plus a forward-mounted stop screw on the drive side to keep the wheel from slipping forward under the force of your gargantuan legs. The rear dropouts are spaced 135mm instead of 132.5mm like the Cross-Check simply because there are far more options for disc hubs in this spacing.






At the moment for some odd reason Triton have this new 2014 Straggler frameset in their sale. Metallic pink in 60 and 62cm at £365 and in Black in 60, 62 and 64 at £395.

http://www.tritoncycles.co.uk/frames-fo ... lack-p1429

One of the guys on the UK Fat Bike forum has just bought a Straggler and is liking it a lot.



The Croix de Fer is not designed to run single speed. The frame has has no "designed in" way of chain tensioning when single speed mode and could only work with a horrible chain tensioning device.

Going back to your original post, I do think an XL AWOL would fit and meet your needs and is only 6 weeks away, (promised delivery could be late I guess).

Brian

[SamSam]

Thank you Brain, very useful information, Straggler and Cross-check just jumped to the top of my list (I think I don't necessarily want disc brakes, normal brakes will do fine for me, so the Cross-check is also back on the list).

Now that we're at it, I guess I would also like the bike to be compatible with Rohloff hubs (to keep all options open for the future), and even a belt drive system (or is that just a thing for hipsters and not truly functional for touring?).

Based on all this the time has come to face the fact that the Croix de Fer might limit my options in the future and is OUT

Specialized Awol seems to be compatible with Rohloff hub and belt drive system, so maybe I indeed have to place that ugly b#### back on the list. The comp also seems to be made from Reynolds 725. I do like the cross-check and straggler better though purely based on appearance.

[mrjemm]

Note the cross check drop-outs aren't the same as the straggler's. The cross check's are horizontal only, which may be more awkward for setting up gears and wheel removal, I am not sure. The straggler has horizontal, but with a vertical part... As easy as a normal drop-out to set up gears and wheel removal. Straggler is a very nice bike.

The large sizes at Triton won't be in until 31 Jan 14 though. Which may be true for other Surly dealers as most get them through Ison, who are saying 28 Jan for Black and 30 April for Magenta- http://www.ison-distribution.com/englis ... t=FMSUG42A

May be worth asking if the Surly dealer if they can get directly from US...

Screeeeeeeeech.....

I just saw the belt drive bit.

Well, sorry Sam. Those need a special frame with a split in it, as the belts don't open up like a chain. None of the bikes we've discussed have this, unless you have a friendly frame builder who could hack a hole in your seat-stay of course...

[SamSam]

Have to admit I yet have to do my research on Belt drives. But today I have discovered a guy that lives less than 10 km from my place and next year he is going to cycle from Alaska to Mexico and he is doing this on a Santos Travelmaster with Belt drive and Rohloff hub. Combined with the fact that Erik guy from the Awol team also uses a belt drive on his Awol comp for touring, I was just curious what these things are and if they might be a good idea for possible future touring/cycling plans for anyone in general.

Besides the belt drive thing (which again I don't yet know what that actually is ), a Surly Straggler 60 or 62 in that glitter dreams purple/magenta colour seems like a very good deal and I might just order one within the next few weeks.

[meic]

As a tall person but not so tall as yourself, I would never buy anything but the largest size they make.

Surly are one of the few companies who sell larger sizes, it would be a shame not to exploit that fact.

The other slightly less obvious point is the length of the steerer tube on the forks, they are always too short. The Surly 700C ones are 350mm but their large frame 26" ones are 400mm (the forks blades are 14mm shorter but it still gives a bit more height).

I am not saying you should have a 26" wheel bike but it is worth considering.

I have a 360mm steerer on my Van Nicholas and I wish it was longer.

Thorn do sell forks that have 400mm steerers for 700C wheels and may be the only company to do so.

Other companies could be much worse than those which I have mentioned, selling bikes with 300mm steerer tubes, meaning your hands could be below your knees.

[Claireysmurf]

I must admit that the Rose bikes carbon belt trekking bikes interest me (I have not re-read the thread to refresh my mind on all of the requirements)
http://www.rosebikes.co.uk/search/find/?q=carbon+drive

[SamSam]

As a tall person but not so tall as yourself, I would never buy anything but the largest size they make.

Surly are one of the few companies who sell larger sizes, it would be a shame not to exploit that fact.

The other slightly less obvious point is the length of the steerer tube on the forks, they are always too short. The Surly 700C ones are 350mm but their large frame 26" ones are 400mm (the forks blades are 14mm shorter but it still gives a bit more height).

I am not saying you should have a 26" wheel bike but it is worth considering.

I have a 360mm steerer on my Van Nicholas and I wish it was longer.

Thorn do sell forks that have 400mm steerers for 700C wheels and may be the only company to do so.

Other companies could be much worse than those which I have mentioned, selling bikes with 300mm steerer tubes, meaning your hands could be below your knees.

So the length of the steerer tube on the forks will be larger on the larger Straggler frames?

I remember that this problem has surfaced before and that someone told me that it is possible to buy and install an extended steerer of some sort, to get the bars higher. This maybe?:

[BrianP]

When you add belt drive then it does reduce to the Awol Comp or Comp frameset.

Unfortunately here in the UK, Specialized are only importing the Delux model which has the cheaper 4130 non splitting frame which is a great shame. The Comp has the very nice rocker dropouts that you mention and the split rear stay.



My understanding is that Specialized do not let their dealers sell over the internet so difficult for me to order a frame from Europe or the US. The Delux is such good value I wondered about just getting on with buying that, making sure it did fit as well as hoped and if it did, buying a Comp frame somehow later. Does anyone know if one of the excellent German bike shops which supply so efficiently and at such good prices to the UK could also supply an AWOL Comp frameset?

Brian.

[pioneer]

BrianP, as somebody who has been following this thread for some time and taking into account the difficult and perhaps increasing challenges due to the desires of the OP, I think that with the Surly Straggler, you have solved the problem.
This seems to me like the best solution of the lot. It looks like a great bike/frame and will fulfill all needs of the OP. Well done sir!

I wouldn't go down the belt drive road yet myself (no pun intended), simply because I can't see the benefit over chain drive. Though others will ofcourse have their own slant on this.

Funnily enough, I saw a cream Surly Steamroller in town yesterday. A rare beast in this part of the world. This frame was on my short list before getting my Bob Jackson in October of 2012. (I went for the BJ in the end because it's lighter and sprightlier for light day rides and saddlebag touring). But Surly frames are in my opinion lovely things and well worth their money.

Whatever happens, the Straggler is now known to more people than it was before, so thanks for that!

[reohn2]

FWIW,If you're thinking of either a Surly Cross Check or Straggler,the CC is the better option of the two IMO as the Strag's rear disc brake mount is in the wrong place for a touring bike and leads to bodged up rear rack fitting or the rack fitted more rearward than needs be(as per photo above)than if the D/B mount was fitted to the chainstay,where is should be.
You needn't worry about the CC's horizontal dropouts they are just as user friendly as the Strag's and wheel fitting is just as easy with the stop screws provided with the frame(same as the Strag's).
TBH I wouldn't touch belt drive for touring with an extremely long barge pole.It limits the rear hub to IGH which limits the hub to Rohloff for reliability(forget Shimano Alfine 11,they aren't reliable enough there's a thread on here somewhere proving my point).If you're thinking of a Rohloff,ride one first they don't suit everyone.
Meic's point about getting the bars high enough could be a valid one but a problem that can be overcome with a extender should you need one.
TBH for you commute if it's flat enough for SS/fixed gear I'd buy a cheap secondhand bike for that duty,and buy a decent tourer for day rides and touring.You then don't need to worry about changing things over,adding gear levers,mechs,etc,it's by far the simplest option and you won't fret about leaving it chained up on the street.
Should you do that you're then left with a choice of:- Surly DT,LHT or CC,Salsa Vaya,Spec AWOL,Cinelli,all dedicated touring bikes but with the AWOL and Cinelli being unknown factors,and the Surly DT & LHT having a sound reputation for being round the world tough as old boots expedition tourers,with the Vaya and surly CC also having a very good reputation though not as heavy duty as the Surly LHT/DT,though the Vaya only goes up to 60cm but TBH I think that's big enough.
Ultimately the choice is yours and by process of elimination you'll arrive at the right bike

[mrjemm]

R2, the Straggler has 2 sets of mounts that can be used for luggage and/or mudguards- the one you refer to at the back of the dropout, and the one a couple of inches above, on the seat-stay. Both could be considered as not the best in an ideal world perhaps, but both work, and no idea why that fellow is using silly long extenders on his rack, as they're not needed; I guess it's just the design of the rack. The calipers are outside the stays, but the rack mount is clear of them, and in this position, the luggage is hardly further back than anyother bike really.



See? Tis not a disc specific rack, just a tortec velocity hybrid. I will though, add the disclaimer that those are hydraulics (SLX) that are narrower than mechanicals such as BB7.

And there are little 'bridges' strengthening the dropouts, so leverage is not a problem, methinks. Also, I suspect Sam will have big feet, so possibly the little bit further backness may me an advantage! I certainly knock my panniers on my bikes at times- Vaya included IIRC.