Today I saw cyclists twice thrown off trains and another set turned away. Firstscotrail appear to operate a very strict policy these days. The train I was on from Edinburgh to Dundee said "maximum 2 bikes" on a bike rack that took three. Many trains have a bike rack but only a few say "max 2 bikes". The guard on the first train let us have three bikes on the end train bike rack but my fellow cyclists at the top of the train took umbrage at being advised there should only be two bikes and then the guard threw them off at the next station. Neither could other cyclists couldn't get on the train.
Same thing happened for the return trip ( we made sure we only had two bikes on the rack) and cyclists were turned away or asked to leave the train.
The guard stated "health and safety". The train was very quiet ( its a Sunday) and I don't understand their problem when three bikes fit on properly. There seemed to be no come and go. One of the guys asked if he could stand with his bike at the top of the train ( as it obstructed no-one) but was told he couldn't.
The irony is virtually every station along this line says "national cycle interchange" encouraging you take a bike.
What can be done to improve things? Should I write to the railway company?
cyclists thrown off train - what rights do we have?
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andy_scot_uk
- Posts: 170
- Joined: 6 Apr 2007, 4:41pm
Carry the rules!
I always research the rules and download a copy.
It is amazing how many guards back down when you ask why they are not complying with their stated regulations, and ask for details of the reasons.
Last time was on one of the awful South Wales trains when I was refused access because there were passengers sitttng in the appalliing little cubby hole they laughingly call a a cycle carriage facility.
Having said that, it is increasingly difficult to use trains with a cycle, ridiculously I now have less hassle flying with my bike (and it is cheaper) than using the train!
It is amazing how many guards back down when you ask why they are not complying with their stated regulations, and ask for details of the reasons.
Last time was on one of the awful South Wales trains when I was refused access because there were passengers sitttng in the appalliing little cubby hole they laughingly call a a cycle carriage facility.
Having said that, it is increasingly difficult to use trains with a cycle, ridiculously I now have less hassle flying with my bike (and it is cheaper) than using the train!
I find all of this terribly sad. When I grew up near Liverpool our local line (MerseyRail) was fantastic because you could just get on the train with your bike and there were never any problems at all. I wonder if the same is true today (hopefully!) but from the sounds of it a lot of the train operators are determined to hinder cyclists.
Simon Wolf
Re: cyclists thrown off train - what rights do we have?
andy_scot_uk wrote:Today I saw cyclists twice thrown off trains and another set turned away. Firstscotrail appear to operate a very strict policy these days. The train I was on from Edinburgh to Dundee said "maximum 2 bikes" on a bike rack that took three. Many trains have a bike rack but only a few say "max 2 bikes". The guard on the first train let us have three bikes on the end train bike rack but my fellow cyclists at the top of the train took umbrage at being advised there should only be two bikes and then the guard threw them off at the next station. Neither could other cyclists couldn't get on the train.
Same thing happened for the return trip ( we made sure we only had two bikes on the rack) and cyclists were turned away or asked to leave the train.
The guard stated "health and safety". The train was very quiet ( its a Sunday) and I don't understand their problem when three bikes fit on properly. There seemed to be no come and go. One of the guys asked if he could stand with his bike at the top of the train ( as it obstructed no-one) but was told he couldn't.
The irony is virtually every station along this line says "national cycle interchange" encouraging you take a bike.
What can be done to improve things? Should I write to the railway company?
FirstScotrail is notorious for its strictly enforced policy of two bikes per rack and the need for a bike booking in most instances to guarantee a place on one of their trains.
I found myself in a situation where I had a booking confirmation for my bike but a rail ticket of dubious validity due to some inter rail company lack of co-operation. The ticket inspector was only interested in my booking confirmation and waved me past the ticket barrier thus saving m the hassle of trying to explain the provenance of my rail ticket.
End to Enders are well versed in the difficulties of getting their bikes onto trains and ScotRail lay on a van at Inverness to transport bikes to Wick or Thurso and vice versa. Apart from that there does not appear to be any concession to the growing demand for cycle spaces on trains. meanwhile booking ahead appears to be the solution but insist on receiving the bit of paper.
WolfUK is perfectly right.
We have wonderful countryside around us and there were hundreds of rides around. We used to regularly "station hop" to see and expolre new areas of the downs and countryside with everything between Bristol, London and Brighton within a carefully planned day excursion.
Now however as we can no longer leave early enough, guarantee to get there or even get back, it is simply impracticable.
We have wonderful countryside around us and there were hundreds of rides around. We used to regularly "station hop" to see and expolre new areas of the downs and countryside with everything between Bristol, London and Brighton within a carefully planned day excursion.
Now however as we can no longer leave early enough, guarantee to get there or even get back, it is simply impracticable.
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mhara
Access to the coast of England is a load of tosh if nine tenths of cyclists can't hope to get there without having to resort to a car.
IMO CTC should stop their daft campaign for more coastal access and concentrate on getting better train services for cyclists. Let's hear a little more about the latter please.
IMO CTC should stop their daft campaign for more coastal access and concentrate on getting better train services for cyclists. Let's hear a little more about the latter please.
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andy_scot_uk
- Posts: 170
- Joined: 6 Apr 2007, 4:41pm
so how do we get the CTC to complain to rail companies?
Myself what I thought I would do was write to the rail company Firstscotrail.
Also there is this body; http://www.passengerfocus.org.uk/
It seems from what the people above say is that we are at the mercy of officials on the train and therefore we can set out on a bike journey but have no real expectation that we get home.
In this Internet age where I can pay for car parking via mobile phone SMS it seems incredible that I can not book a bike space.
Myself what I thought I would do was write to the rail company Firstscotrail.
Also there is this body; http://www.passengerfocus.org.uk/
It seems from what the people above say is that we are at the mercy of officials on the train and therefore we can set out on a bike journey but have no real expectation that we get home.
In this Internet age where I can pay for car parking via mobile phone SMS it seems incredible that I can not book a bike space.
the exact wording here
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/ga ... /NRCOC.pdf
Regulation 49 - this condition applies from the start of the journey - looks to me like you shouldnt be thrown off once accepted on to the train but shouldnt necessarily expect to tranfer?
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/ga ... /NRCOC.pdf
Regulation 49 - this condition applies from the start of the journey - looks to me like you shouldnt be thrown off once accepted on to the train but shouldnt necessarily expect to tranfer?
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andy_scot_uk
- Posts: 170
- Joined: 6 Apr 2007, 4:41pm
Section 49 states "in the opinion of staff" which means that they can do what they like. Section 49 talks about cycles being accepted on the train but to be fair to the guard she didn't know how many bikes were on the train until she got to the bike rack. What this rule means is that if the guard has had a bad day then you do not travel. Until this weekend never really seen a problem.
It depends how you read it. Yes the discretion is with the member of staff; but a legit interpretation of the wording is that they must exercise that dicretion at the start of the journey, they cant decide half way between lands end and john o'groats....
Why else would they put what appears to be a qualification in there?
Why else would they put what appears to be a qualification in there?
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andy_scot_uk
- Posts: 170
- Joined: 6 Apr 2007, 4:41pm
I see what you are saying but I think the guard gets us under the "likely to cause injury, inconvenience or nuisance" clause in that section. They just have to cite health and safety and that the cycle storage sign says 2 bikes.
I'll happily quote the section but if the guard threatens to call the police I'll be off the train
I'll happily quote the section but if the guard threatens to call the police I'll be off the train
I think the fact he meantioned Health and safety is likely to be a give away that he doesnt know his way around the regs.
So at that point you might want to mention that Reg 49 says he cannot throw somebody off for luggage after they have started the journey. Its may also worth asking for clarification on what part of the health and safety rules he is applying. If the bike is secured and not blocking passage I dont see what the issue could be.
[url]
http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/principles.htm[/url]
One last thing - another part of the regulations show that you are personally responsible for any injury that your luggage may cause.
So at that point you might want to mention that Reg 49 says he cannot throw somebody off for luggage after they have started the journey. Its may also worth asking for clarification on what part of the health and safety rules he is applying. If the bike is secured and not blocking passage I dont see what the issue could be.
[url]
http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/principles.htm[/url]
One last thing - another part of the regulations show that you are personally responsible for any injury that your luggage may cause.
But apart from Merseyrail, anywhere else in the country, this is why I ride a folding bike. A Birdy doesn't fold quickly. It doesn't fold small. It's not easy to carry when it's folded, especially if I've fully loaded it with 4 panniers & a bar bag.
BUT it does fold.
Train staff just walk off saying "Oh, OK".
I haven't told them that their regulations specify how much luggage I can take with me. And it certainly isn't 5 bags & a folded bike. But I don't care. I can always get on the train, no problem.
BUT it does fold.
Train staff just walk off saying "Oh, OK".
I haven't told them that their regulations specify how much luggage I can take with me. And it certainly isn't 5 bags & a folded bike. But I don't care. I can always get on the train, no problem.