So, is the future 650B?

[horizon]

I'm sure this must have been discussed before but the market appears to be moving quite fast. I'm not interested so much in the pros and cons of the wheel size (if MTBs can move happily from 26" to 29", moving through 700c then that shows there's not much to argue about). I'm interested in the flexibility that might be gained by not having to choose between a 700c touring bike and a 26" one: you can reap the advantages of both without being forced into the extremes of either. It may mean not having to have so many bikes! And you can mix and match between bikes: tyres, wheels, racks etc. I wouldn't be arguing this but for the fact that (for completely different reasons) MTB makers are pushing 650B. Rather than see it as an empty marketing stunt, could we not steal it from them and embrace the possibility that from now on the vexed question of 700c versus 26" for touring is a thing of the past?

[willcee]

Personally i don't think so, however in these days we are living in manufacturers want /need us to consume and that means every whichway they can dream up to reinvent the wheel..i only wish that those who design current machines would have to work on them so they could see exactly what happens a year in , eg.. with rattling internal cabling, not easy to readjust for stretch etc etc, and press fit brackets..don't go there.... then the big issue currently being disc brakes on road machines,i can understand the need with MTB's and buckled rims... ime as a car race and rallye driver, big powerful brakes need good wide adhesive race rubber ...its easy to stop the wheel but that doesn't always mean the vehicle stops.. do they fit abs??? most competition cars don't... i think the gossip within the UCI is that they may not ratify them soon or ever for racing.. no 650's for me, or 29's either.. the wheel has been invented.. hold on to your money .. 700's are here to stay as are 26's...as someone else here said some time ago i think it was Brucey if you're in a foreign land you would likely find a 700 or a 26 and extremely doubtful if you would locate anything else... will

[JonMcD]

One current limitation is the supply of 650B road tyres - not just at the LBS but from manufactures. Marathon 42-584, Hutchinson 32-584, Continental Tour Ride 42-584 and the spendy Grand Bois Hetre 42-584 and are all I can find at the moment. Until/unless a mass manufacturer of road/utility bikes does the same as the MTB manufactures have done, I can’t see things changing much. I see touring bikes as a niche market that has to accept the components produced for the mass market.

[horizon]

The main argument against 650B is indeed availability. But this is chicken and egg - if the builders start making 650B then the tyre makers will follow. My guess is that 700c touring takes its tyres from hybrids and utility, a much bigger market. But this sector IMV is also wide open to 650B. A big manufacturer like Giant must look with salivating lips upon the prospect of rationalising its hybrid and MTB bikes to a single wheel size (in fact I find it hard to see why the original hybrids ever were 700c and not 26"). If Thorn alone can produce 26" wheeled touring frames, then I cannot see why both frames, wheels and tyers shouldn't start merging together to produce a strong flow to the market. And if 26" shrank due to a switchover in MTB then 650B would explode. Availability would no longer be a problem.

[Brucey]

short answer; 'no'.

longer answer; the only really good reason for choosing a given wheel size (so close to many others) is if there are good tyres in that size that are not available in other sizes.

For a touring bike being able to get tyres in foreign climes is pretty useful; if that is a concern then arguably 650A is a better size than 650B...

For road use, the fact that (this year, for the next five minutes, or w.h.y.) there are some MTB tyres and a few others available doesn't really alter the viability of 650B for touring purposes. The MTB stuff is here today and (like the marketing men who ran out of good ideas for product differentiation...) may be gone tomorrow, besides which it is mostly the wrong stuff for touring, (unless your idea of touring is 32h rims, disc brakes, and knobbly tyres). If you look closely at what is available and suitable for touring in 650B, then you are right away down to a tiny handful of suppliers with no real assurance that what little availability there is will be maintained.

The notion that the World is a better place or that somehow a touring bicycle is made intrinsically better by having wheels that are about 5% different in size ( 5%..... ) from other sizes is pretty nonsensical, hair splitting stuff in absolute terms.

As it is, it amazes me that people get so worked up over the 10% difference between 559 and 622; most people don't set their tyre pressures within 10%.... and it doesn't make more than a fractional difference in anything that you can actually measure or notice.

cheers

[horizon]

short ans

As it is, it amazes me that people get so worked up over the 10% difference between 559 and 622; most people don't set their tyre pressures within 10%.... and it doesn't make more than a fractional difference in anything that you can actually measure or notice.

cheers

It isn't me that gets worked up: my bikes get very worked up about that 10% - I cannot switch wheels, tyres and tubes between my 26" wheel bikes and my 700c bikes no matter how relaxed I am about it. So it actually makes a huge difference to what you can actually measure or notice. The bike shops also get very worked up about it - you have to make a choice between two relative extremes when I would just happily go for something in the middle. You cannot just say "Aw, doesn't matter really" - they will scream at you and demand that you choose one or the other. Why does that have to be if it makes so little difference?

[Brucey]

I've never felt tempted for one moment to start swapping my wheels and tyres between my touring bike and my MTBs, or from either to my road bikes; that would be like trying to dance the waltz in DM's or pole vault in flip-flops.

If you do manage to get ballet shoes onto a rugby player, it doesn't suddenly make him a ballet dancer....

The point I'm making is that everything else is different about these bikes too; the tyre design is just one thing amongst many.

The fact that you might be able to swap a few wheels about or that tyres might fit onto rims that are the same diameter is a complete red herring; they would still be different tyres and they would still be different rims; these are in turn designed to be attached to different frames with different components on them.

cheers

[horizon]

I've never felt tempted for one moment to start swapping my wheels and tyres between my touring bike and my MTBs,

cheers

Generally, neither have I. I have felt very tempted though to swap wheels and tyres beween my 700c touring bikes and my 26" wheel touring bikes (of which I have two if you include my MTB which I use as a tourer). If I had a Thorn tandem that would make three. I'm now in the process of getting rid of one bike (the 26" tourer or the 700c tourer). It's a difficult choice. And when winter comes, I am very tempted to use my 26" Ice Spikes on my touring bikes but alas cannot.

[Brucey]

I hardly dare ask why it was that you couldn't make your mind up between 559 and 622 when you were buying these bikes in the first place... unless it was perhaps because they were different bikes, made for a different purpose, (in which case they will have different wheels and tyres on them, surely...?).

cheers

[rbreid]

650B The future? Not in this wee corner of the world. Have just said a tearful goodbye to my last pair of concave Weinmann 27 inchers. Got all my bikes shod in 700c and "market forces" or heaven help us the insanity of "fashion" will play no part in my future decisions as have 8 bikes shod and a spare set of wheels for each. A further 22 rims, a box full of maillard L/F hubs and a drawer full of boxes of spokes. Countless tyres in the attic. Bring it on marketing men......I ain't listening

[horizon]

Bring it on marketing men......I ain't listening

But I'm not a marketing man. I'm just someone who uses bikes a lot, not for extreme sports and competition (downhill mountainbiking, time trialling, racing, sportives, jumping etc etc) but for getting around - not on carefully planned, beautifully tarmacked routes but on the roads and pathways that I have to take to get from A to B. Sometimes these "roads" are covered with grit, branches and mud (my local journey home), sometimes my bike is heavily loaded with work stuff or camping gear. Sometimes (as happened frequently over the last 2 - 3 years) my way home is covered with ice and snow. There was no marketing man around when I last hit the ice or cycled through a blizzard in Shropshire this March. I'm not a Sunday morning fair weather cyclist and neither do I seek out off-road rocky jumps and high-thrill downhill rides. My ideal tourer (for that read "bike") is therefore a cross beiween a 26" wheel MTB and a 700c tourer for all the obvious reasons. Thorn agree with this so produce such a bike. But they also produce 700c tourers. I want to rationalise my bike collection but actually want to keep an average of several bikes. The obvious wheel choice is 650B. No marketing there - I'd sought it out (see my post on A4 wheel size) and then someone else pointed out 650B. So here I am.

[horizon]

I hardly dare ask why it was that you couldn't make your mind up between 559 and 622 when you were buying these bikes in the first place... unless it was perhaps because they were different bikes, made for a different purpose, (in which case they will have different wheels and tyres on them, surely...?).

cheers

When I bought my first 700c bikes there weren't really 26" tourers around (or at least I wasn't aware of them). I knew I didn't want an MTB (except as an MTB). Now it's different: Surly offer two versions of their LHT so, as one forum member has just been agonising over and changed his mind, we have to choose. Same bike, same purpose, different wheels. In fact when I asked in that thread what the difference was between the two versions, no-one responded so I am assuming there aren't any. Like I said, same bike, same purpose, different wheels.

[rbreid]

Hi, horizon. Wasn't having a go. Guess I just made my choice as what works best for me. Day trips, off road on cyclocross bike, shopping trips, camping trips, longer tours. When I had the shop a big part of the business was bike hire and that was 80% mtb's. Pleasure is my greatest motivator in cycling and the only 26" wheeled bike I ever got real pleasure riding was a Bianchi mtb with 6 spd x 3 shimano back in the mid 90's.
Make your choices as to what works best/gives greatest pleasure. Lay in a stock though as the future is unpredictable
If someone had told me in the sixties that 700c would sound the death knell of the 27" I'd not have believed them

[Brucey]

the fact that there are two different versions (of say, the LHT) with two different wheelsets means that there is a difference, even if it is just in people's minds.

The difference in ride between 559 and 622 loaded touring bikes is not large in most cases; the real differences lie in component choice, bike fit, etc, even if these (and a few other things) are in most cases more perceived differences rather than actual ones.

I think the choice is as much driven by what other bike people have in the shed, (and what parts etc they are happy with) as much as anything else, with the thought (as you have) that it might be handy to be able to swap stuff around at times.

However in many cases these swapping choices are imaginary rather than real, because the parts don't really fit properly and/or you end up with a 'frankenbike' which is neither fish nor fowl; if you like, an elephant ballerina wearing flip-flops, for example.

I'm in the middle of making a 559 wheeled touring bike to take a load, starting with an MTB. Easy job...? Well, if I wasn't right fussed about a lot of things, yes. But...I've realised that (even though I had a heap of bits to start with) the whole idea was a bit wrong-headed; by the time I'm done, if I do it properly, there won't really be any 'MTB' left; even the frame will have the wrong geometry. There won't be many parts (maybe the rear mech...?) I would want to swap onto (or off) any of my MTBs, it will all end up being somewhat different.

Most bikes only make really good sense as an integrated whole; swapping stuff around makes sense in a few instances but often this is because it is a compromise in one or other use to start with.

cheers

[andrew_s]

short answer; 'no'.
longer answer; the only really good reason for choosing a given wheel size (so close to many others) is if there are good tyres in that size that are not available in other sizes.

The only thing 650B has going for it (IMO) is that the wider Grand Bois tyres are only available in 650B, and there's no real equivalent in either 700c or 26". The closest would be the Panaracer Pasela, but that's a step down, quality-wise. Too spendy for me to be tempted, however.

And when winter comes, I am very tempted to use my 26" Ice Spikes on my touring bikes but alas cannot.

There is an Ice Spiker Pro available in 700c, if you've got the clearance. Alternatively, you could get disc brakes for your next tourer.