I've taken out the quick-release spindle and bar, and all the ball bearings (oddly, I noticed the cog side had ten and the other had eight, is this normal?), after liberal application of GT85 degreaser the cassette now feels and sounds like it has grit in it when free-wheeling. I'd like to take it off and attempt to re-grease or re-oil, whatever it needs, is it possible to do this? The cogs look fine so I don't want to have to buy a new one, it's just a touring six speed (been on many years, may not be able to buy the same thing now, or can I?), originally it had a five speed set but I don't think they are available any more. It's on a 27" / 630 wheel and non-indexed friction levers if that makes any difference.
So, can the cassette be dismantled to get the grit out and re-lubricated? If so, what tools / grease / oil would be required? I don't even have the tool to take the cassette off, may need to ask my local bike shop to do that for me and to put it back on too, or is it worth buying the tool?
The cassette says on it:
TD Shimano VIA
MF-Z012
I don't know what this means though.
It is a Pelissier hub, I found a Shimano screw-on cassette on eBay, http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230864107193, should this fit? I was reading on a webpage that French, British, and other hubs used different threads.
Thank you for your advice on this.
Degreased rear hub, now cassette sounds bitty
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jonathanuk
- Posts: 32
- Joined: 28 Sep 2013, 6:05pm
- Location: North Yorkshire
Degreased rear hub, now cassette sounds bitty
Last edited by jonathanuk on 3 Nov 2013, 3:47pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Degreased rear hub, now cassette sounds bitty
My guess is that at some point it had 9 ball bearings on each side (the normal case) and at some point one of them fell into the wrong place during an assembly or disassembly.
I wouldnt be happy unless I replaced them all as the bearings come in packs that are all graded to suit each other within the pack and not any other pack you buy. Identical looking bearings could be different enough to take all the load on just the one wrong sized one.
I wouldnt be happy unless I replaced them all as the bearings come in packs that are all graded to suit each other within the pack and not any other pack you buy. Identical looking bearings could be different enough to take all the load on just the one wrong sized one.
Yma o Hyd
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jonathanuk
- Posts: 32
- Joined: 28 Sep 2013, 6:05pm
- Location: North Yorkshire
Re: Degreased rear hub, now cassette sounds bitty
meic wrote:My guess is that at some point it had 9 ball bearings on each side (the normal case) and at some point one of them fell into the wrong place during an assembly or disassembly.
Ah, well I suppose it's possible that one fell down the middle as I removed the quick-release spindle. Should I try it with 9 in each side then when I re-assemble? These bearings have been running fine for many years, the wear ring on the black bit is smooth and regular, no pits or grooves.
Re: Degreased rear hub, now cassette sounds bitty
No and Yes.
If the bearings on each side came from different packs then the one with 8 bearings in has 8 all of the same size.
Moving one of the ten over has a 90% chance of putting one in the wrong size.
On the other hand all 18 may have come from the same pack or the difference may turn out to do little detectable harm. Best practice may not always be essential. If it was me it would be 18 new bearings (or even old bearings in known sets of 9).
If the bearings on each side came from different packs then the one with 8 bearings in has 8 all of the same size.
Moving one of the ten over has a 90% chance of putting one in the wrong size.
On the other hand all 18 may have come from the same pack or the difference may turn out to do little detectable harm. Best practice may not always be essential. If it was me it would be 18 new bearings (or even old bearings in known sets of 9).
Yma o Hyd
Re: Degreased rear hub, now cassette sounds bitty
What you have is a freewheel not a cassette.
The thread size is usually stamped on the side of the hub by the thread, possible covered in grime to obscure it.
The great Sheldon Brown wrote this piece on freewheels.
http://sheldonbrown.com/freewheels.html
It is tricky to dismantle a freewheel as it is tricky to determine whether the teeth are worn, but Sheldon has a piece on that if you search for chains as well.
A chainwhip removes the freewheel if you grip the tyre at the same time. and it is worth buying one.
The thread size is usually stamped on the side of the hub by the thread, possible covered in grime to obscure it.
The great Sheldon Brown wrote this piece on freewheels.
http://sheldonbrown.com/freewheels.html
It is tricky to dismantle a freewheel as it is tricky to determine whether the teeth are worn, but Sheldon has a piece on that if you search for chains as well.
A chainwhip removes the freewheel if you grip the tyre at the same time. and it is worth buying one.
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jonathanuk
- Posts: 32
- Joined: 28 Sep 2013, 6:05pm
- Location: North Yorkshire
Re: Degreased rear hub, now cassette sounds bitty
Thank you. It's all Greek to me, I just called it the gears at the back but I keep seeing cassette mentioned everywhere now, thought it was just some trendy new name they have for it.
I have been advised by the eBay trader regarding that freewheel that it should be fine for my hub, and probably to replace the chain as well. I can't really argue with that as it's been on the bike for at least ten years, although it has probably only done a few hundred miles in that time it has not been maintained or cleaned.
I have been advised by the eBay trader regarding that freewheel that it should be fine for my hub, and probably to replace the chain as well. I can't really argue with that as it's been on the bike for at least ten years, although it has probably only done a few hundred miles in that time it has not been maintained or cleaned.
Re: Degreased rear hub, now cassette sounds bitty
If it was mine, I would buy a chain whip or a Shimano specific socket thing for the freewheel to remove the freewheel.
Soak the freewheel and chain in parafin then examine both for wear.
Then measure the elongation of the chain to determnine wear. Again Sheldon for details. And go from there.
The Park Tools web site has numerous pages on different aspects of maintenance with lots of pictures if you get stuck.
If the freewheel is worn then I would examine the chainrings (on the cranks) as well to see if they need replacing otherwise you are putting a new chain on worn chainrings.
If it has only done 200 miles then it should be fine.
Soak the freewheel and chain in parafin then examine both for wear.
Then measure the elongation of the chain to determnine wear. Again Sheldon for details. And go from there.
The Park Tools web site has numerous pages on different aspects of maintenance with lots of pictures if you get stuck.
If the freewheel is worn then I would examine the chainrings (on the cranks) as well to see if they need replacing otherwise you are putting a new chain on worn chainrings.
If it has only done 200 miles then it should be fine.
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jonathanuk
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- Location: North Yorkshire
Re: Degreased rear hub, now cassette sounds bitty
Freewheel turner / Chain whip is now on order. I don't think I can do any harm by taking it off and soaking it and the chain in paraffin, it will be the first time I have removed one so good experience, and the chain whip should be good for use on my other two bikes that I believe have the newer freehub and cassette system (just learned what that is today!)
I think the chain rings look fine (those are the big cogs that the pedals turn, right?), they are large alloy ones.
I think the chain rings look fine (those are the big cogs that the pedals turn, right?), they are large alloy ones.
Re: Degreased rear hub, now cassette sounds bitty
If this is a freewheel,not a cassette and it seems as if it is,you don't need a chain whip to remove it,only a freewheel remover with splines that correspond with the freewheel,so Shimano freewheel needs a Shimano freewheel remover.
If the f/wheel has been on a long time it will be tight,so you need either a big adjustable spanner or a big ring spanner.
It's probably better if you reassemble the hub bearings and fit the axle/spindle first.
This is a cassette and freewheel remover:- http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FREEWHEEL-AND ... 43b23bb419
the splines locate on the freewheel splines and then to stop it slipping off you hold it in place with the quick release skewer,using the spanner to loosen the f/wheel,once lose remove the q/r as it'll tighten on it after less than half a turn then unscrew the /wheel off the hub.
Another type is this one:- http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Freewheel-Rem ... 3a83964e01
Which doesn't need the q/r skewer as it has a centre pin to help stop it slipping off,but you may need to extend the handle with a length of tube,an old straight handlebar with the end flattened to so it slips over the tool handle is good to extend the leverage of the handle.
Fit a new freewheel and a new chain,and don't forget to use some anti seize compound such as copper grease on the f/wheel threads for next time
If the f/wheel has been on a long time it will be tight,so you need either a big adjustable spanner or a big ring spanner.
It's probably better if you reassemble the hub bearings and fit the axle/spindle first.
This is a cassette and freewheel remover:- http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FREEWHEEL-AND ... 43b23bb419
the splines locate on the freewheel splines and then to stop it slipping off you hold it in place with the quick release skewer,using the spanner to loosen the f/wheel,once lose remove the q/r as it'll tighten on it after less than half a turn then unscrew the /wheel off the hub.
Another type is this one:- http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Freewheel-Rem ... 3a83964e01
Which doesn't need the q/r skewer as it has a centre pin to help stop it slipping off,but you may need to extend the handle with a length of tube,an old straight handlebar with the end flattened to so it slips over the tool handle is good to extend the leverage of the handle.
Fit a new freewheel and a new chain,and don't forget to use some anti seize compound such as copper grease on the f/wheel threads for next time
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Re: Degreased rear hub, now cassette sounds bitty
reohn2 wrote:If this is a freewheel,not a cassette and it seems as if it is,you don't need a chain whip to remove it,only a freewheel remover with splines that correspond with the freewheel,so Shimano freewheel needs a Shimano freewheel remover.
If the f/wheel has been on a long time it will be tight,so you need either a big adjustable spanner or a big ring spanner.
It's probably better if you reassemble the hub bearings and fit the axle/spindle first.
This is a cassette and freewheel remover:- http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FREEWHEEL-AND ... 43b23bb419
the splines locate on the freewheel splines and then to stop it slipping off you hold it in place with the quick release skewer,using the spanner to loosen the f/wheel,once lose remove the q/r as it'll tighten on it after less than half a turn then unscrew the /wheel off the hub.
Another type is this one:- http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Freewheel-Rem ... 3a83964e01
Which doesn't need the q/r skewer as it has a centre pin to help stop it slipping off,but you may need to extend the handle with a length of tube,an old straight handlebar with the end flattened to so it slips over the tool handle is good to extend the leverage of the handle.
Fit a new freewheel and a new chain,and don't forget to use some anti seize compound such as copper grease on the f/wheel threads for next time
And it's not a bad idea to wear stout gloves when you remove the freewheel (saves the skin on your knuckles if it should slip) - old garden gloves can be recycled for bike use.
Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X2, Raleigh 20 stowaway X2, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840, Giant Bowery, Apollo transition. 
Re: Degreased rear hub, now cassette sounds bitty
spot the difference?
the top one is a freewheel remover, with wide splines.
.........the bottom one is a cassette lockring remover, with narrow splines
Moral.....don't trust everything you read!..
Bike fitting D.I.Y. .....http://wheel-easy.org.uk/wp-content/upl ... -2017a.pdf
Tracks in the Dales etc...http://www.flickr.com/photos/52358536@N06/collections/
Remember, anything you do (or don't do) to your bike can have safety implications
Tracks in the Dales etc...http://www.flickr.com/photos/52358536@N06/collections/
Remember, anything you do (or don't do) to your bike can have safety implications
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jonathanuk
- Posts: 32
- Joined: 28 Sep 2013, 6:05pm
- Location: North Yorkshire
Re: Degreased rear hub, now cassette sounds bitty
Yah, I was thinking I should just get that nut one anyway, though I don't want to put the wheel bearings in as it's currently full of old grease and degreaser as I can't get to it to clean it properly with the freewheel in the way; I will see if I can just put the quick release part in to hold the nut thing in place.
The one with the handle says it's for HG cassettes, I don't have one of those.
The one with the handle says it's for HG cassettes, I don't have one of those.
Last edited by jonathanuk on 3 Nov 2013, 9:52pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Degreased rear hub, now cassette sounds bitty
Colin's right,a blunder on my part and I stand corrected 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
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jonathanuk
- Posts: 32
- Joined: 28 Sep 2013, 6:05pm
- Location: North Yorkshire
Re: Degreased rear hub, now cassette sounds bitty
I have ordered one of these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/300959900470
It looks correct and is (it says) from a UK seller so should arrive quicker.
After reading Sheldon Brown's page a bit more, I think all my freewheel really needs is a good oiling, my application of degreaser probably just thinned out the original oil, the gritty sound should go once oiled. I will try to soak it in paraffin along with the chain, oil it and then see how it sounds.
Still going to buy a new freewheel and chain anyway so that I have a spare set, they are not expensive.
It looks correct and is (it says) from a UK seller so should arrive quicker.
After reading Sheldon Brown's page a bit more, I think all my freewheel really needs is a good oiling, my application of degreaser probably just thinned out the original oil, the gritty sound should go once oiled. I will try to soak it in paraffin along with the chain, oil it and then see how it sounds.
Still going to buy a new freewheel and chain anyway so that I have a spare set, they are not expensive.
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jonathanuk
- Posts: 32
- Joined: 28 Sep 2013, 6:05pm
- Location: North Yorkshire
Re: Degreased rear hub, now cassette sounds bitty
That IceToolz nut fitted perfectly, placed that in a vice with the wheel horizontal and it came straight off. I couldn't remember which way to turn it at first and did get a tiny bit of a turn in one direction, tried the other and that was the correct way, no problem at all. Threads looked good.
I now have the freewheel and sprockets assembly sitting in some paraffin, after playing with it a bit the gritty sound has gone which I take as a good sign. After it's soaked in that overnight (is that ok?) should I just fit it and oil it? Need to do a little more scrubbing while it's in the paraffin to get those deep recesses between the sprockets clean first though, I have one of those sprocket brushes for this.
I now have the freewheel and sprockets assembly sitting in some paraffin, after playing with it a bit the gritty sound has gone which I take as a good sign. After it's soaked in that overnight (is that ok?) should I just fit it and oil it? Need to do a little more scrubbing while it's in the paraffin to get those deep recesses between the sprockets clean first though, I have one of those sprocket brushes for this.