Cycling UK Forum

mjr wrote:If the online retailers are undercutting the LBS's supply chain on price and delivering faster, why doesn't the LBS just buy from the online one?
.................

I'm afraid you misunderstand me. Rib Reaction are selling to the public at a little OVER the wholesale price of retail (packaged) equipment.
Edit...and I agree...its not about the packaging.
Its about whether or not you want the LBS to be there....most people need him from time to time.....case in point..http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=81542

yes i agree it's about supporting the local shop. over many years i've got to know what my shop does and doesn't stock (or can source.) if i know they will have it i will go there first. if i think they may have it i will try then source elsewhere if not.
i prefer to spend a little more money locally than a little less online - plus there's none of that "your packet is at the far distant post office from next tuesday afternoon onwards. maybe"

531colin wrote:
Its about whether or not you want the LBS to be there....most people need him from time to time.....case in point..http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=81542

I agree Colin, I do try and tend to put business through the Locals where possible but somethings they are so far out on tinternet price that I buy on line Chains being the case in point. But today i wanted a new pair of shoes, So I toured the LBS's I paid about £10 more but being able to try them on was priceless. clothes are another thing I like to buy locally regardless of price.

531colin wrote:Its about whether or not you want the LBS to be there....most people need him from time to time.....case in point..http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=81542

OK but that would mean about 50% markup on the parts-only example pete75 gave above - a bit excessive, don't you think?

I like and use 2 of King's Lynn's 4 (I think) LBSes and the 2 chain outlets have their uses too, but I do buy quite a few parts online and if the LBSes want more parts supply businesses, that markup will have to fall. Even though I get bikes serviced and repaired at the LBS, I'd much rather the LBS charged the full amount for that instead of trying to get parts-supply customers to subsidise it.

I don't think a business model which relies on sentiment or some kind of hazy belief in saving the future is a particularly good one. Just speaking in terms of business sense, I wouldn't want my livelihood to depend on that.

Chain Reaction, Wiggle, Amazon etc - they're all here not just because of cheap prices, but because they innovate - a shared buying experience with users around the world, reviews, a proper web presence - these things just work in this day and age. Ironically, many an enthusiast will be a fickle customer to an LBS, as they've learnt 90% of what they need from the internet. Arguably, Shimano tech docs have done more to harm the LBS than rock bottom prices!

As mentioned above, if you're buying a mass-produced part, made to a standard, there's little reason to pay more than is necessary. The best things the LBS can provide is a service.

In cultures where cycling is more common, the LBS can thrive as it serves more ordinary folk who don't want to learn about different brake blocks or cable pulls. But even in those places, they still need to innovate and consist of more than a bunch of enthusiasts.

There's also the range of products and manufacturers that an on-line business can stock as opposed to a LBS. The two local bike shops near me are good but they only stock products from certain brands. If you want to buy a helmet you have the choice of Giro in one shop and Specialized in the other. It's the same with bike brands - they stock a limited range of manufacturers. Many of the on-line retailers provide a wider range of goods which you can browse for hours in your own home. Try hanging around in a bike shop looking at stuff for about an hour and see how welcome you will be! I sometimes feel that having walked into a bike shop, I'm obliged to buy something. On-line I can look at stuff, compare other sites and if I decide not to buy there is no uncomfortable feeling.

I like to use local shops when I can but sometimes price and delivery are simply not competitive. The high street is changing, and with money getting in short supply price can be the deciding factor. High street shops need to up their game to compete in a new internet world.

mjr wrote:.........
OK but that would mean about 50% markup on the parts-only example pete75 gave above - a bit excessive, don't you think?............

VAT at 20%.
By the time you pay VAT, business rates, tax on profit, the government takes more out of the business than the man who works 7 days a week.
There has to be something left to live on.
Look at the other high street shops, the markup on clothes is huge. When they sell them half price at the end of the "season" they are still making money.

When I had a shop, a certain wholesaler would sell me dynamos by the box of 10.
I knew the factory gate price, and I knew that the wholesaler was making as much per dynamo as I was.......I would have to fit and wire up the dynamo for nothing in order to sell it, he was making the same amount per dynamo just for shifting a box.
UK wholesalers have it nicely sewn up, thanks very much.
When you go to Europe, you can buy skiing gear at the bottom of the ski lift for little more than the UK wholesale price.

edocaster wrote:I don't think a business model which relies on sentiment or some kind of hazy belief in saving the future is a particularly good one. Just speaking in terms of business sense, I wouldn't want my livelihood to depend on that.

Chain Reaction, Wiggle, Amazon etc - they're all here not just because of cheap prices, but because they innovate - a shared buying experience with users around the world, reviews, a proper web presence - these things just work in this day and age. Ironically, many an enthusiast will be a fickle customer to an LBS, as they've learnt 90% of what they need from the internet. Arguably, Shimano tech docs have done more to harm the LBS than rock bottom prices!

As mentioned above, if you're buying a mass-produced part, made to a standard, there's little reason to pay more than is necessary. The best things the LBS can provide is a service.

In cultures where cycling is more common, the LBS can thrive as it serves more ordinary folk who don't want to learn about different brake blocks or cable pulls. But even in those places, they still need to innovate and consist of more than a bunch of enthusiasts.

PaulB wrote:There's also the range of products and manufacturers that an on-line business can stock as opposed to a LBS. The two local bike shops near me are good but they only stock products from certain brands. If you want to buy a helmet you have the choice of Giro in one shop and Specialized in the other. It's the same with bike brands - they stock a limited range of manufacturers. Many of the on-line retailers provide a wider range of goods which you can browse for hours in your own home. Try hanging around in a bike shop looking at stuff for about an hour and see how welcome you will be! I sometimes feel that having walked into a bike shop, I'm obliged to buy something. On-line I can look at stuff, compare other sites and if I decide not to buy there is no uncomfortable feeling.

I like to use local shops when I can but sometimes price and delivery are simply not competitive. The high street is changing, and with money getting in short supply price can be the deciding factor. High street shops need to up their game to compete in a new internet world.

All well and good.
When I was single/just married and didn't have tools, I had some jobs done at shops, but I have done all my own work for 40 odd years. I build wheels, service hubs, fit headsets and bottom brackets, silver solder cable guides and rack mounts to frames. I have made (and still do make) the odd bespoke tool for Spa, and I don't think any of my bikes are built entirely from commercial parts. But when I want a different pair of forks for a frame, I go to a framebuilder.

Most people, including most people who spend their money on the internet, are nowhere near as self-sufficient as I am. If you work in a bike shop, you see a constant trickle of people with mis-matched bits they have bought on the internet, and expect you to sort it out right now because they "have an event" on Sunday.

It wouldn't inconvenience me a great deal if there were no LBSs, but I would need to be more organised buying cables, brake blocks, bar tape and such stuff.

Far too much angst on here....have a couple of happy pictures......


From my ride to-day. (actually, yesterday now)....they were shooting over the hill, do you think he knew?..I was here....



And here is Horton-in Ribblesdale station, with Pen Y Ghent in the background in brilliant sunshine a few days ago

531colin wrote:Far too much angst on here....have a couple of happy pictures......

From my ride to-day. (actually, yesterday now)....

I was here....

And here is Horton-in Ribblesdale station, with Pen Y Ghent in the background in brilliant sunshine a few days ago

Colin,
You have just reminded me of the reason why I'm building up my new bike! Oh and if you can find a lbs like mine you'll know why they are important.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TALXhBSZVQ4

I'll update this on Monday or whenever when I get my bike back

It's not a David Vs Goliath thing, it's retailers who've identified what's important to their customers Vs those who're unwilling or unable to grasp that the world of retail has changed. If I need a part, my choices are to buy anytime over the internet and have delivered in a day or two, pick it up on the way home from a Halfords or Evans, or give up some of my precious Saturday to get to an independent bike shop. Even if the price was the same the independent is least likely to get the custom. The majority of my bike spending is with, SJS, Spa, Ribble, Chain Reaction and Rose. A right mixture, the only thing they have in common is understanding their potential customers. Up thread someone mentions the ability to try stuff on, CR now offer free returns, I can try stuff on at home rather than the cramped changing room at the LBS, then have a few days to think about it if I'm not 100% sure, then decide if I want to keep it or return. If I want to return it I can do so from the newsagent round the corner who is open late. That's better for me even before looking at the price difference.
Of course they can't fix your bike over the internet, but local to me are a few shops and business that have made servicing and repairs their main purpose. One of them uses Chain Reaction as his supplier, you choose the parts from them, with his advice if needed, they get sent to him and he'll do the rest, including picking up your bike from home or work.
I don't mean to sound harsh, I'm someone who was unable to keep up with the changing world and had a business go bankrupt in 1998, but I believe where there is a need there will be people who can make a success of fulfilling it. The fact that it'll be different to what has gone before doesn't mean it isn't as good, I see no case for supporting a business that isn't offering what I want out of some sense of obligation or loyalty.

Vat is 20% on the online retailers as on the LBS. Similarly, the online retailers are paying rates, taxes and so on. That's nothing to do with why the LBS is charging so much more on parts supply. The three most understandable reasons are that they may have more expensive premises, they're getting shafted by wholesalers, or they've screwed up their pricing. Good premises, people will pay a bit more but not 50% more. If their wholesalers are shafting them, they should find better sources...

mjr wrote:........... wholesalers are shafting them, they should find better sources...

Theres only one wholesaler for Shimano in the UK

531colin wrote:

mjr wrote:........... wholesalers are shafting them, they should find better sources...

Theres only one wholesaler for Shimano in the UK

So? They could source parts from elsewhere in the EU.