Spa Steel Touring frame

[meic]

It is a reference to some classical works of English Literature.

A bit like people quoting Shakespeare to each other.

[531colin]

Thanks for that, Brucey.
I'm happy with building a prototype and seeing how it rides.....some of the other stuff makes my head hurt....

51 cm bike is.....
top tube 28.6x0.8/0.5/0.8
down tube 31.8x0.8/0.5/0.8
seat...29.8x1.2->28.8x0.6/0.9

ie not too much bigger than the old standard of inch/ inch and eighth tubes of traditional designs in 531 etc.

[531colin]

I sometimes wonder why we make our choice of bike so that it will suit a 2 week loaded holiday once or twice a year? Unless you have only one bike, it will then sit in the shed or whatever for the rest of the year.
If you do have only one bike, then is it not better to make decision on a lighter more useful road bike and then gear this up for the odd time you will use it on tour?
I'm just as guilty having bikes for different roles, but any of them would probably be up to any job with a possible change tyres/wheels etc.
Although I must admit I don't pay that much for my bikes.

If the frame is too light and too flexible it will be all over the place when you load it up, and no wheels/tyres/cycle parts can change that.
There are some good compromises that you can make. A frame that's stiff enough to carry a load needn't be too harsh unloaded if you fit big light flexible tyres and run them at a sensible pressure.
however, I do think there is a place still for a very unfashionable bike, a "light tourer". To be proper stable, and room for proper big tyres like a tourer, but just a bit less hefty for lightly-laden riding.

[Brucey]

I'm happy with building a prototype and seeing how it rides.....some of the other stuff makes my head hurt.... .

You and me both then...

Proof of the pudding is in the eating etc...

cheers

[RickH]

It is a reference to some classical works of English Literature.

A bit like people quoting Shakespeare to each other.

Or in this case quoting "Ook" to each other!

[Jezrant]

I sometimes wonder why we make our choice of bike so that it will suit a 2 week loaded holiday once or twice a year? Unless you have only one bike, it will then sit in the shed or whatever for the rest of the year.
If you do have only one bike, then is it not better to make decision on a lighter more useful road bike and then gear this up for the odd time you will use it on tour?
I'm just as guilty having bikes for different roles, but any of them would probably be up to any job with a possible change tyres/wheels etc.
Although I must admit I don't pay that much for my bikes.

If the frame is too light and too flexible it will be all over the place when you load it up, and no wheels/tyres/cycle parts can change that.
There are some good compromises that you can make. A frame that's stiff enough to carry a load needn't be too harsh unloaded if you fit big light flexible tyres and run them at a sensible pressure.
however, I do think there is a place still for a very unfashionable bike, a "light tourer". To be proper stable, and room for proper big tyres like a tourer, but just a bit less hefty for lightly-laden riding.

That idea of a light tourer with clearances for proper big tyres is very fashionable in the US, but unfortunately they've also gone a bit bonkers with silly low trails and funny french tyre sizes. Make one with trail in the low 60s and 700c wheels, and you'd be onto a winner.

[reohn2]

........... I do think there is a place still for a very unfashionable bike, a "light tourer". To be proper stable, and room for proper big tyres like a tourer, but just a bit less hefty for lightly-laden riding.

Build it and they will come,as someone once said.

I reckon sooner rather than later the cycling world outside of racing wannabies and sportive superstars ,will wake up to the comfortable/quick/pleasant ride qualities of big volume lightweight tyres,once it gets over the fashion/racing thing it could happen and even possibly start a fashion of it's own.
The advantages far outweigh any(if any at all) slight disadvantages especially as roads deteriorate in our stalled economy.
We're already seeing bigger tyres on some utility bikes and of course the so called gravel bikes.Some cycle tourists have known big tyre qualities for years,though usually in a 559 rim size,with tyres such as P/racer Pasela's,Schwalbe Marathon Supreme(even if they're grossly over priced),not forgetting the Vittoria Voyager Hypers that I'm so fond of.
The sheer pleasure of riding such a machine has to be experienced,even in a heavier package such as the Salsa Vaya I like so much.A similar machine made in lighter tubing and possibly V brakes again for lightness could be a winner,though if it had disc brakes all the better IMO.
If a bike like that with clearances for 40mm tyres could be built under or around the 10kg mark it would be a very versatile machine,quick enough for a blast,robust enough to ride off road and to carry a light weekend touring load yet still commute on bad city tarmac whether it's owner did any of or all such a bike could handle it and that's it's magic IMO.
Oh dear I'm beginning to get that far away look in my eyes,the poetic classical bike look,you know the one or should it be or even a but never a

[reohn2]

That idea of a light tourer with clearances for proper big tyres is very fashionable in the US, but unfortunately they've also gone a bit bonkers with silly low trails and funny french tyre sizes. Make one with trail in the low 60s and 700c wheels, and you'd be onto a winner.

I think it's a very niche market though and with a nostalgic eye cast back to the French touring bicycle constructeurs of yore,nice bikes as they are they tend to be stuck where they are,not easily upgraded with modern components and as you say the 650B tyre issue.
Colin's idea breaks new ground in so much that it goes against what has been,erroneously IMO, pushed by the big players as the only way to go,ie; C/F minimum spoke wheeled 22 speed racing machines in all but name which have a very narrow format.
I believe people are waking up to the limitations and short lifecycle of such bikes.
Steel frames, slack angles 700c with plenty of tyre clearance have a charm all of they're own for me but it goes far deeper than that,their versatility is wide and practically all encompassing.
Take a look at the Surly Cross Check's popularity,a bike which IMHO could be improved on without too much thinkology or cost.

[Jezrant]

It is a niche market, but the idea of a light tourer with clearances for bigger tyres is hardly new or revolutionary. It's one of those ideas that keeps coming around. Grant Petersen has been designing bikes like that for over twenty years now. His frame designs have little in common with the French constructeur frames that are also back in vogue in the US thanks in large part to Jan Heine. The two approaches are quite different. However, whether there is much of a market for a sensibly priced Rivendell-type bike in the UK is another question.

[honesty]

Personally I'd love a light tourer with 3 bottle holders and an OLN of 133mm and proper tyre clearances. My thorn audax is good but I do miss the 3rd bottle holder on long days.

[Jezrant]

The problem with Audax bikes is the clearances are too limited. The idea I think Colin and R2 and I are discussing is a light touring frame like the Thorn or Spa Audax but with clearances for bigger tyres than 700 x 28mm with mudguards.

Edit: actually, I know the answer to this, and Colin has also mentioned this before. It's impossible to build a small frame with those sorts of clearances without toe overlap or an excessively long top tube. The only way is with 26" (or 650B) wheels. Hang on, the Spa Tourer has clearances for 700 x 35mm. Oh yeah, it's that business with the brake levers and shifters and all that.

[honesty]

With a slightly different fork I can get 32c tyres on my bike with guards (narrow 32c tyres though), so the only real thing I want is another waterbottle holder mount. It would be nice to be able to fit Kojaks though...

The nearest thing out there at the moment I would guess is the Sabbath Silk Route, as it seems a rather light frame when compared to the Spa tourer. I can only guess they have specified lighter tubing.

[Jezrant]

What do you mean by a slightly different fork? Isn't that going to change the way the bike rides? Or do you mean a fork with the same measurements as the original but with canti bosses?

btw: for an extra bottle cage, there are a few different ways to add one onto a frame. brucey or somebody will explain i'm sure if you start a new thread.

[honesty]

Yeh I know I can get the bosses added but thats a real pain and will need re-spraying afterwards. Im not that concerned about it, just that if I had the option when I was buying a bike it probably would have swayed me one way rather than another.

On the forks, I have a carbon one at the moment with very limited clearance, the steel one that came with the frame originally had greater clearances but has the same rake.

[Jezrant]

there are a couple of other ways of adding another cage. One way may compromise the frame. Opinions are divided. Another way doesn't look lovely but works fine using clamps.