Oooh - I'm Cross

[700c]

I do not have any moral or any other responsibility for other cyclists

+1

[mjr]

So called cyclists on pavements are our worst enemy (except for young children). How will motorists appreciate us as proper road users unless we assume our rights as normal traffic? I don't know about London, as I've never cycled there, but in normal situations we should be able to ride on the roads just like other users. We all pay for the roads through our taxes, and we are therefore entitled to use them in the same way as anyone else

Yeah, we've been trying to assume our rights as normal traffic for how many decades now? How well's that going? We need a mix of tracks and road rights, both with decent design, if we want mass cycling, else we're going to have a problem getting new cyclists up to road speed/confidence.

London's not wildly different, except it has lots more cyclists in places, some isolated bits of fairly good design, a shared bike scheme and A few Notorious Deathtraps to avoid.

[TonyR]

So called cyclists on pavements are our worst enemy (except for young children).

Not as bad as the Councillors who slap a bit of white paint on an otherwise ordinary bit of pavement that the Highway Code then recommends cyclists to cycle on.

[thirdcrank]

Collective responsibility used to play a big part in the legal system in the absence of any sort of policing system: perhaps we are heading back in that direction.

One idea might be something along the lines of Frankpledge, where groups of neighbours had to provide surety for each others good behaviour. One problem for cyclists might be that we'd be forever asking for discounts and reduced price membership.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankpledge

Something (slightly) more useful might be "hue and cry" under which anybody who witnessed an offence was obliged by law to chase the baddy while shouting a cry to others for assistance, which they in their turn were obliged to give. They do say that the well known phrase or saying "Stop thief" wasn't a futile order to the felon, but an abbreviation of "Stop the thief" aimed at other startled passers by. Perhaps we might see pelotons of cyclists, growing in size as they went, shouting something appropriate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hue_and_cry

That had me thinking of the chain gang. When I googled, it's nothing to do with cycling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_gang

So, it's a work in progress and in the meantime, collective responsibility passed out of favour yonks ago when it was found to be largely ineffective. Campaign for better enforcement of traffic law, would be my advice.

[MartinC]

One of the problems we all have is the number of angry people on the road.

[reohn2]

Regarding hue and cry,when in Romania shortly after the revolution,a crowd of about 15 or 20 people came down the street with about three or four of them holding a young chap,who looked to be in his 20's,by his arms and collar,he looked a bit beat up,blood around his mouth and a rapidly closing bruised eye,his clothes were all muddied and he looked very worried.
I asked our Romanian friend what was going on,he asked one of the crowd and was told that the guy had snatched a woman's handbag and was chased down through the streets,they were taking him to the police station.
It's the only time I've ever seen anything like it and found it a bit of a shock TBH,but I'll bet he never did it again ,not to mention the signals sent out to anyone thinking of doing the same.
I chatted with the family who we were staying with about the incident and was told that it was a rarity but was felt to be a public duty to catch a criminal.
I don't think it extended to cyclists riding on the pavement though

[mrjemm]

I can understand the catching part, R2. But I would be unhappy about the 'swift justice' aspect of his being bloodied and bruised. Stinks of vigilanteism. The police may fail us, but at least they do maintain standards when failing us. Mobs are mobs, and we saw the results of those in the riots... And peadatricians getting lynched, etc.

There are more greys than the black and white world of the right wing media that they would like us to believe. Accountability and common good are a couple of reasons we have a police force. Aspects like this may have got lost along the way at times, but the general public simply cannot be trusted, and have too much tendency presently to look the other way, be it from the initial crime, or the disproportionate response of the self-appointed justice seekers.

[meic]

Wow, if the OP gets that angry on a bike, he must never, ever get in a car.

Whenever I get in my car, I see other motorists driving in such a way that would make

3 cyclists on a busy main road in darkness without lights

2 cyclists run red lights with no regard for anyone else around.

seem like there was a IAM convention in town and the Police had blocked off access to the general public.

Why do manufacturers still bother giving controls that allow the flashing yellow lights to work on separate sides of the car when they are only used as parking lights nowadays. Why do we have to have speedometers fitted when everybody just drives at the same speed as everyone else (what are those numbers in red circles at the roadside for?)
How about the car that drove at me on the wrong side of the road as I was walking across a junction, I thought I had priority because I was already crossing the road and not on "their side of the road". They thought they had priority because they were in a car and can cut a corner when there are no other road users.

However I dont feel that they let ME down as a motorist at all. I just feel that we need some Police Officers out on the beat with "nothing better to do with their time" than stop a few (well an expletive great mass of) petty criminals.

[Tonyf33]

I was driving back from Hull t'other night, in the space of 15 minutes getting across town to the motorway I would estinate;

6 vehicles with lights not functioning properly
4 jumping red lights (one so badly that there was almost a collision and the vehicle on green was on their horn)
3 vehicles sitting over the stop lines.
2 vehicles sitting in an ASL (this was 8:30 at night and quietish roads)
1 on the phone
1 with steamed up windows they couldn't possibly see much if anything
1 weaving violently from side to side as if warming their tyres F1 style
Several dozen vehicles not indicating their intent at junctions/roundabouts

You would see this and more in any city across the country, this is 'normal' and accepted, it won't ever make headline news with thousands throwing their toys out the pram on newspaper internet columns or fora to get motorvehicle drivers in check with police crack downs and stern warnings & 'advice' handed out..will it heckers like.

Yes, cyclists breaking the law is annoying but comparatively they are still far far behind the tin cans when it comes to dangerous, anti social behaviour and law breaking..

[Postboxer]

I do think it would be easy to introduce roundabout cameras and fine all the people not indicating, it would soon improve traffic flow and safety.

[meic]

Funnily enough, whenever the authorities try and sort out our (motorists) problems, like speeding, failing to indicate, illegal parking RLJing etc. The bad motorists' lobby shows it has far more clout than the good motorists' lobby and there are howls of "war on motorists".

I think no chance of cameras on roundabouts, pointing out to motorists who all think they are so good, just what poor drivers they really are.
I miss an indication once in a while.

[ScotchEgg]

Nearly all the cycle paths round my way are on old or existing footpaths. So cycling on the pavement seems to have become de rigeur, in the auhtorities eyes anyway.

[Ron]

Isn't it about time we serious cyclists started to think serious;y about how we are going to tackle this.

I'm paying the police to deal with it and will happily wait until they have dealt with the more important issues of the day.

[reohn2]

I can understand the catching part, R2. But I would be unhappy about the 'swift justice' aspect of his being bloodied and bruised. Stinks of vigilanteism.

I'm not justifying the beating doled out,my point was what's the chances of a hue and cry here?

The police may fail us, but at least they do maintain standards when failing us.

Those standards a fairly low from what IME,in January and March this year I had the unfortunate experience of listening to the absolute incompetence of Greater Manchester policeforce's officers when attending my granddaughter's inquest,if it weren't so tragic it would have been laughable.

Mobs are mobs, and we saw the results of those in the riots...

I totally agree.

And peadatricians getting lynched, etc.

I don't understand this comment,I must have missed or can't bring to mind the story

There are more greys than the black and white world of the right wing media that they would like us to believe.

Oh without doubt,in any case I don't read newspapers,whatever their politrickal bias,

Accountability and common good are a couple of reasons we have a police force.

But what happens when those police forces are unaccountable,and don't contribute to the common good,or as we so often see are totally prejudiced against the law they seek to uphold,think Hillsborough for one.There have been numerous others where an individual officer or number of officers have been collectively to blame for cover ups or even downright illegal behaviour,and like the RC church in the case of child abuse,close ranks.

Aspects like this may have got lost along the way at times,

From my experiences with the police in the last ten years they have been totally lost and I do understand that it's not all the police's fault,but IME the standards are low and getting lower.

but the general public simply cannot be trusted, and have too much tendency presently to look the other way,

It's what happens when a society is as insular as ours,it becomes man mind thyself,or devil take the hindmost.
The failings of unbridled capitalism go deeper than profit margins.

be it from the initial crime, or the disproportionate response of the self-appointed justice seekers.

There are always those who wish to take things further by administering their own punishment,the police should be there to prevent that.
Unfortunately the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction,where wrong doers are looked after far too well,and punishments far too soft,especially for motoring crime, IMO.
I know I bring the Rhyl incident up regularly but how anyone can have three,that's three defective(that means unlawful)tyres on a motor vehicle, then plow into a group of cyclists killing four and maiming two others and walk away with a £200fine+point is beyond my comprehension.That sentence wa based on the defence that the defective tyre weren't a contributory factor in the crash .
Yet no one ever considered that anyone with three defective tyres should not have even been on the road in the first place!
It's cases such as this and many others that make the law a laughing stock for criminals.

A story I've related on here before but worth another airing if only to highlight a point.
I reported some illegal and dangerous parking that was a very real danger both to primary school children and motorists alike.
I was told by the officer I spoke to on the phone that if I had a digital camera could I take some pics showing the danger the parking was putting the children in.
The officer didn't like it I when asked him who was the police officer,me or him.Not to mention a 60 year old man taking photos of primary school children on their way home, and all that could entail .
Nothing was ever done about the problem despite me mentioning that all that was needed was a warning note under wiper blades and a word with the local shop owners.
In fact if anything the problem is worse now than even!

[661-Pete]

I saw a yellow fiat 500 beetling down the A273 this morning, with no number plates. I looked carefully, front and rear, nix. And I couldn't see any sign of trade plates, either. Not even on the parcel shelf inside the rear window (a favourite place to put plates and beat the cameras).

What does the Law have to say about that? How are we supposed to report hit-and-runs if we can't even give a reg. number?