Police Thugs

[ScotchEgg]

Report it. These events stack up and if the officer concerned has a history....

[fluffybunnyuk]

All of the above posts....my thoughts exactly , i just didnt want to post them.

I should add a couple more thoughts... you may or may not remember a couple of months ago i filed a police report regarding a woman on her mobile who tried to pull out from a junction and cut me up in the process. As someone posted at the time...its the last you'll ever hear....Well its feedback time and guess what...it WAS the last I ever heard of it.

Anyway the police report on this was actually filed last friday. and i was amazed first thing monday morning (probably because its the IPCC not the police) an officer is round my house putting a note through the door saying they dont have my details......which is odd given it was hand-delivered. Anyway after a week of police inaction on the matter someone finally tells me I need to fill out an IPCC booklet, and send it in. More delaying tactics I assume.

My main thought is if the officer was suitably trained i.e. a traffic officer, and wore hi-viz moved to the curb and gave a clear stop signal then life would be so much easier, instead of trying to yank a passing pigeon off their bike. The pre-prepared back story they laid into was fascinating(It was this that made me so irate I headed straight for the local nick after I got home).

Oh my use of WPC was deliberate. WPC ****, and New Cross Road junction by the Royal Albert pub I'd recommend giving it a wide berth go up Deptford High St or something.

As a matter of fact I was so scared by almost going down I stepped into fight or flight mode, and squared up to her. That prompted an immediate step backward from her. After that she was a bit too cowed to nick me for something or anything she could dream up. Whats interesting is her buddy copper was looking the other way when I turned to face the WPC, so I look forward to reading that she saw everything, and is backing her fellow copper to the hilt.(A bit predictable despite the fact she wasn't looking my way).

What meic says is so true in a way. 20 years ago common sense would of prevailed. A quiet apology,no formal complaint and a couple of days traffic duty learning something about traffic would probably have happened. Times change. I'm not interested in anything except the apology, you'd have thought the WPC could find the time just to say sorry. It was a bad decision made on the spur, because she failed to notice the cyclist quick enough, and compounded the erroneous thought process by trying to reach out and yank me out of the road.

On the positive side I wish the police would get out and go ticket crazy for a few days, it might make for more careful driving for a couple of months.

Gosh I think I dont need ibuprofen and a compress so much as blood pressure tablets after this.

Emma (No I'm a fat irate wild boar at 75kg)

p.s. peace and goodwill to all road users this xmas

[tyreon]

Wow! When I first read this story 'the jury was out',I tended to think the cyclist might have elaborated a little. Then,after reflection,and on reading the post about Ian Tomlinson and raiding my memory on other police abuse,I think(if reported correctly),this lady has a case.
Normally I would have revued the police and given them the benefit of the doubt,even though I consider myself to have been abused by British Authority. Now...well,when you read the news,raid your own memory(Hillsboro,miners strikes etc...)you have to do a double take. This WPC seems to have gone over the top. Guess no witnesses.
I want to believe in the police force,and most poilice officers these days...but then I want to believe in the church,our parliamentarians and our judicial system,bankers,the army...and guess what? My faith is diminshing every day.
If told rightly(and see no reason why not),totally mad act by the WPC.OTT.

[thirdcrank]

(This was prepared before your latest post but that doesn't alter what I've written)

You've not asked for advice so I'll only offer one bit. Our indefensible defamation laws mean that naming-and-shaming needs to be approached with some care. An individual gets some shelter from the anonymity of the internet but in a case like this, the CTC might be a sitting duck. Defending a case is both difficult and expensive and if you can't identify your star witness because they are anonymous, you might be onto a loser. The Police Federation has shown itself ready to take action over defamation of its members and it has the £££ to do so. I hasten to reiterate that I'm not a lawyer, and certainly not a defamation lawyer.

As cycling in London is high on media agendas at the moment, there might be some interest there. IIRC, a member of the London Assembly invited cyclists who had been fined for not wearing helmets to contact her. Being pulled off a bike for the same reason might be of interest to the politician concerned.

I could easily put together a promotion exam type answer on police powers to stop vehicles, to arrest suspected offenders to ascertain their ID, and the power to use reasonable force to exercise those powers. That doesn't seem to me to be the issue here, although I'm looking at this from a couple of hundred miles away.

If something like this happened to me, I like to think I'd be preserving the evidence (photographs of injuries and medical examination) and then off to see a specialist lawyer PDQ. (Specialist in the sense of one specialising in civil litigation against the police.) I'd be considering a claim for personal injury etc. One big advantage of a civil claim is that it's so much easier to prove than a criminal offence or a police discipline offence, because the standard of proof is only on the balance of probabilities. Also, in a civil claim against a police officer, the chief officer (in this case the Metropolitan Commissioner) can be sued as a "joint tortfeasor." I think one of the big problems for the relevant police force then is to defend a case where the individuals alleged to be involved may be more concerned to protect themselves against the risk of criminal or disciplinary proceedings than worrying about how the police avoid paying compo.

Having said that, this seems to me to be much more significant than an individual incident and - again only with the view from far away - this is probably not isolated but symptomatic of what's happening in the capital at the moment. In response to a surge in the numbers of cyclists being killed in collisions, the police - presumably as part of a policy rather than individual actions - have decided that cyclists should be stopped to advise them to wear helmets and hi-viz togs, and using their powers under PACE, including presumably the use of force, to carry this out. Perhaps garbled instructions have been misinterpreted: it seems it wouldn't be the first time in this "crackdown." I could imagine wires getting crossed between "firm action against offending" and "giving safety advice where appropriate."

Assuming I'm right about this being symptomatic, it seems to me like an ideal type of case to be supported eg by the CDF for the benefit of cyclists more generally.

[fluffybunnyuk]

I think sueing is a bit overkill. Lifes too short. But your advice is sound in seeing a lawyer, just on the basis of recording the events accurately, and protecting my back.

I have sent an email to someone in the Assembly on the basis they may find this incident useful.

I could imagine wires getting crossed between "firm action against offending" and "giving safety advice where appropriate."

Totally agree.

[Shootist]

Firstly, if the officer has reached out and grabbed you while you are riding your bike, that officer has assaulted you. The offence is contained within section 39 Criminal Justice Act 1988 and I can assure you that the offence is complete. In case you do not know of the law, this officer has committed a criminal offence. IMO, a prosecution would be entirely proportional and in the public interest. It was an absolutely stupid thing to do and this person should not be in police uniform.

The two issues are, first, what do you want to do about it? IMO, informal complaints achieve nothing, rarely making it past the WPB.

The second issue is proof. Unless there are witnesses all the officer needs to say is "Oh no I didn't." and there will be little chance of it reaching court. There is little point in suggesting that a police officer is unlikely to lie. (You didn't by any chance call her a pleb, did you?) This should not dissuade you from making the complaint. This cretin is likely to have other complaints, and eventually someone may listen. I would suggest you make the complaint. Do it in writing. Insist on dealing with the complaint in writing throughout, and do not agree to an informal resolution. Do your best to get this doom brain away from a position of authority.

Edit.
Look to see if there are any CCTV cameras that might have caught the incident.

[thirdcrank]

I think sueing is a bit overkill. Lifes too short. But your advice is sound in seeing a lawyer, just on the basis of recording the events accurately, and protecting my back...

Any form of action has to be guided by the wishes of the person involved. I generally suggest to people looking for advice that the first thing to do is to have an idea of what sort of result they hope to achieve, then to decide the best way to achieve it, assuming it's possible. This may seem painfully obvious, but many people haven't thought it through, partly because the options can be complicated.

I'm not sure that there's much to be gained by consulting a lawyer if you've already decided that taking legal action is out. It may be, of course, that a decent lawyer would say you were wasting your time anyway, which is part of the value in getting good advice. Legal proceedings can seem daunting and even simple cases can be very stressful for people without experience of the system, but I don't think that it's an over-reaction. There are people who resort to legal action or the threat of it with alacrity and some are tempted by generally misguided ideas of telephone number sums of compo. First, any compo in a case like this is normally only commensurate with the loss suffered, following established criteria. Not everybody can afford a couple of weeks off work. Then, a case in the High Court FluffybunnyUK versus the Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis and another over something like this is just the sort of thing that would concentrate minds at the top, for the benefit of all concerned. Speaking generally, I think there's often a settlement with a no publicity agreement before things get to court.

Anyway, best wishes for a prompt recovery. (PS I see shootist has arrived with an alternative approach. For thge police to grab somebody to stop them is an arrest. Most arrests involve an assault, in the sense of an uninvited touching, even if there's no real force used. Making a lawful arrest is a defence. Making an unlawful arrest puts brass knobs on the compo.)

[Si]

Emma, sorry but have removed the WPC's number as forum moderators our first responsibility is to make sure that the forum/CTC do not have legal action taken against them due to what we have allowed to be said on the forum (see TC's post). At the moment it is just your word against hers with no evidence put forward to back your version of events. I've no reason to doubt anything that you have said, but if the WPC in question did take action then real evidence would be required.

If your case is investigated and your complaint upheld then please feel free to put the WPC's number back into the thread, as it will not be a case of your word against theirs then.

[fluffybunnyuk]

no problem Si. Good moderating. Its a tricky thread.

[661-Pete]

Making a lawful arrest is a defence. Making an unlawful arrest puts brass knobs on the compo.)

A propos, what's the current position on Citizen's Arrest? I've heard that it often leads to a counter-accusation of assault. Can it be done without this risk?

I would think, if I should come across a motorist who was visibly drunk, or in some other way a danger to the public, I'd make a grab for their car keys first. But failing that, I might endeavour to physically separate the offender from their vehicle. So, I might end up in the dock, then. I'd also have the feeling that I might have saved someone's life...

[ArMoRothair]

IIRC, a member of the London Assembly invited cyclists who had been fined for not wearing helmets to contact her. Being pulled off a bike for the same reason might be of interest to the politician concerned.

It is Jenny Jones.

[thirdcrank]

There's no such thing as a citizen's arrest. Apart from anything else, at least according to the definition I learned "A constable is a citizen, locally appointed but having authority under the Crown....."

What you are talking about is dealt with under s24 A of PACE as amended by s110 of the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 Arrest without warrant: other persons (unless there's been something else since.)

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/200 ... -of-arrest

In the very simplest of terms, anybody without police powers can only arrest somebody for an indictable (ie relatively serious) offence to prevent the offender's escape or things deteriorating before the police arrive. Drink driving offences are summary only. OTOH, we had a link to a case where somebody blocked a drunk driver's progress with their own car and was commended, which raised some eyebrows.

I fancy that if somebody acts reasonably, they should normally be OK. Most of the cases I've read about involve somebody who went beyond preventing an escape and gave an alleged offender a good hiding or worse. Even then, there's no guarantee of a conviction. The main proviso is that allegations will be investigated more thoroughly than was once the case. Even being interviewed as a suspect is not necessarily much fun, even if you are eventually vindicated and possibly feted as a hero.

[Shootist]

Making a lawful arrest is a defence. Making an unlawful arrest puts brass knobs on the compo.)

A propos, what's the current position on Citizen's Arrest? I've heard that it often leads to a counter-accusation of assault. Can it be done without this risk?

I would think, if I should come across a motorist who was visibly drunk, or in some other way a danger to the public, I'd make a grab for their car keys first. But failing that, I might endeavour to physically separate the offender from their vehicle. So, I might end up in the dock, then. I'd also have the feeling that I might have saved someone's life...

The so called 'Citizen's Arrest' is a very dangerous past time. Basically, it is limited to indictable offences, and there must be an offence committed. For a real life horror story, read the following case:-

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/1992/2.html&query=title+(+self+)&method=boolean

I have been given to understand that Mr Self received significant damages from the company employing the security officer, settled out of court as these things all too often are. As arrest is, BTW, always an assault, lawful or not. The definition of assault is defined as "an assault is committed where the defendant intentionally or recklessly causes the victim to apprehend immediate unlawful personal violence." If someone tells you that you are under arrest, even if they don't touch you, provided they are in close enough proximity to exercise physical control over you, you will apprehend immediate personal violence, even if this violence is no more than taking you arm. There was a case, I can't find the detail, that a police officer telling someone he was under arrest when he was in no position to effect restrain, did not amount to a lawful arrest. IIRC the suspect just walked off and was charged with escaping lawful custody, on which he was acquitted on appeal.

Powers of arrest are:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/15/section/110

Section 24a does it, but note the case R v Self where it states the fact that an indictable offence must have been committed.

Basically, don't ever do it is my advice.

[tyreon]

What interesting comments are posted here. Thought out and knowledgeable. We have some interesting commentators and some interesting scenarios. As a spectator and cyclist,I am informed.
Citizens arrest: Let me tell you of an interesting story. Some years back a café owner in the city where I live grew tired of people entering his caf and using his toilet with no due regard to him or his business...or buying a tea or cake!
They guy put up a sign to the effect, buy a tea or cake and you may use my toilet. If you do not I would like £1. It was well advertised.
All went well.
But after some time he saw some chap walk thru his caf and use his toilet,then exit. I guess this best didn't please him. Well,this time or the next,he confronts the customer and points to the sign. £1,please. The 'customer' refused to pay. The owner of the caf then had an altercation with the man whereupon the man had the police called and the caf-owner prosecuted for false imprisonment(I guess the caf owner was somehow delaying him from leaving the caf). The 'customer' it turns out was a solicitor. It went to court...or some such. Yup...the solicitor was right,the caf owner wrong.
All well and good some might argue. Justice done. Or was it? Because now,and as can be seen around the country,public toilets are closing and where do you go 'to toilet'?( And the elderly and health impaired can have increased and urgent toileting problems) So now caf owners across the country have become public toilets...without consultation and no recompense. Well,the end result of the above story meant solicitor 1,caf owner: 0. And the caf closed. Guess he didn't want to become an unpaid toilet attendant.
Any elucidation on this fellow cyclists,cafe owners or lawyers?
And yes,some café owners don't want you to use their toilets...even when you ask them politely!

[661-Pete]

At least motorway service areas are obliged to provide free toilets. If the only toilets are at the back of the cafe, well, they've got to let you use them.

But some of the big department store chains, like BHS, have got a bit more canny. They have posted signs saying, you need to scan the barcode off a current day's till receipt, before the door will open for you. I have to admit, I tested out this system once, but it didn't work properly, in that the door opened for me without my having to flash* anything at it.

*Please don't take the above statement the wrong way!