Cycling UK Forum

jb wrote:That’s all the advantage that’s needed to make it vastly superior. .......................

For you. To me it's trivial. With a quill stem changing the handlebar height doesn't involve changing the headset adjustment, the stem or cutting the steerer. For you this may not matter.

Cutting the steerer for an aheadset limits future adjustability. Not as extreme though as frame with a seat post mast that needs to be cut within a cm of your current saddle height. Before the advent of aheadsets no-one used to pay much attention to the head tube length on a frame 'cos it didn't matter. Now it's a critical part of frame geometry because it constrains the variation in handlebar height. Progress?

It's a false dichotomy, both systems have pros and cons.

Si wrote:TBH it seems to me that many many cyclists have done many many miles over many many years with threaded headsets and not had much to complain about, whereas, many many cyclists have done many many miles over many many years with none threaded headsets and not had much to complain about either. Thus whichever system you choose you ain't got to worry too much about having gotten the wrong one as if looked after properly it ought to do you proud.

A sensible response from a moderate moderator

I'm still using perfectly serviceable 1" threaded headsets, some of which are over 30 years old, without ne'er an issue, save some grease, balls, simple adjustment and sensible maintenance

"Brucey: BTW If you have a cable hanger on a threaded headset, you can always hold this with a big adjustable whilst you tighten the locknut. The adjusting race should turn by hand when the locknut is loose; you don't need to get a spanner onto it.

cheers

Thats still more fiddly than one top bolt and two pinch bolts, I can drop the forks out on my A head set inspect the races and have them back in a couple of minutes, I would not dream of doing that with a threaded set.
The sealed bearing sets are far better quality too rather than open balls ready to catch any passing dirt.

My hand built Bob Jackson had threads so short it would only take one type of headset and that refused to stay tight, I'm afraid you'll have to work harder to convince me of their worth in the modern world

If people want some adjustment, leave the tube longer than needed and stack spacers on top of the stem, then cut it to the correct length when happy, although I usually leave about 10mm to play with. Remember to knock the star spangled wotsit further in before cutting.

jb wrote:

"Brucey: BTW If you have a cable hanger on a threaded headset, you can always hold this with a big adjustable whilst you tighten the locknut. The adjusting race should turn by hand when the locknut is loose; you don't need to get a spanner onto it.

Thats still more fiddly than one top bolt and two pinch bolts,

I don't disagree. But on the very rare occasions in a group when someone's threaded headset has come loose mid-ride, they have been able to complete the ride by using it hand-tight; no tools required. In fact one of my clubmates rode his training bike like that for a whole winter... he saw no urgent reason to fix it properly....

I can drop the forks out on my A head set inspect the races and have them back in a couple of minutes, I would not dream of doing that with a threaded set.

If you slide through mud sideways etc then you would need to be able to do this. So on MTBs etc I can see the point. Otherwise it is something that, on a road bike with mudguards, you might need to do once every ten years or so. In fact I have several bikes where they have gone longer than that without being touched.

The sealed bearing sets are far better quality too rather than open balls ready to catch any passing dirt.

well it depends what you mean; a typical 1-1/8" sealed bearing cartridge has about as many (but often smaller...) balls in as a 1" threaded headset. The bearings in an A-Head arguably need to be better quality because the system doesn't work reliably without more preload; plenty of these bearings fail prematurely because they are marginal in strength for the service loads.

My hand built Bob Jackson had threads so short it would only take one type of headset and that refused to stay tight,

well it is a pity that so many frames were made to fit low stack height headsets, like shimano ones, which are no now longer made. When these were current I always advised against having the steerer cut that short, simply because it reduced the choice of available headsets for no obvious benefit. I believe that many such frames can be accommodated by using a Tange model but without the tab washer fitted; I have done this and it has worked fine for decades. That yours came loose is undoubtedly a failure of execution rather than concept; I have seen this happen a few times when the steerer has been trimmed at a slight angle, and unbeknownst to the chap wielding the spanners, the locknut bears against the steerer, not the adjusting race. Perhaps this was the problem with yours.

I'm afraid you'll have to work harder to convince me of their worth in the modern world

Well those who advocate A-Head headsets like to point out shortcomings to threaded headsets (real and imaginary) via the paradigm that they might need to do as much maintenance on one type as the other. IME this is not a reasonable assumption; on road bikes a well-fitted threaded headset (of reasonable quality) will go for decades without needing anything done to it. You don't even need to spend much; a Tange Levin is superb quality and when fitted with loose balls is strong enough for tandems or anything else that you might throw at a bike with a 1" steerer.

On MTBs I can see the point of having thicker steerers and if this comes with A-Head headsets then yeah why not. But of the dozen or so machines I have had with such headsets, I've had to change the headset on most of them for one with better quality bearings in it; otherwise I have found that with average quality (cartridge) bearings in, the steering binds when there is enough preload to stop movement in use. I would not have had to do this for the same reason with a typical threaded headset. I found out the hard way that A-Head bearings also fail (in good part because the seals move and then let the water in) on MTBs if you run with the preload set on the low side.

IMHO the current vogue for 1-1/8" steerers and A-Head headsets on touring bikes just makes a steel fork heavier than it needs to be and so stiff it is unnecessarily uncomfortable. If you need a strong fork fair enough but if not a road frame with a 1" steerer is always more comfortable, and a headset without drop-in races (usually a threaded headset) requires less preload and therefore the bike will usually steer better.

cheers

Well, my mountain bike has a A headset with a grease port. It's thirteen years old now has never needed adjusting and was ridden in salt water and all kinds of conditions including sand in Mexico and Morocco and our worst winter weather. It's been faultless.
I've had threaded steerers come lose on rides where nobody carries a spanner (or two) big enough to tighten it. Usually means hand tightening both nuts at the same time every few miles.
Steerer tube too short? That's not a fault of the system that's the fault of the dimwit who sawed it off.

Brucey wrote:On MTBs I can see the point of having thicker steerers and if this comes with A-Head headsets then yeah why not. But of the dozen or so machines I have had with such headsets, I've had to change the headset on most of them for one with better quality bearings in it; otherwise I have found that with average quality (cartridge) bearings in, the steering binds when there is enough preload to stop movement in use. I would not have had to do this for the same reason with a typical threaded headset. I found out the hard way that A-Head bearings also fail (in good part because the seals move and then let the water in) on MTBs if you run with the preload set on the low side.

IMHO the current vogue for 1-1/8" steerers and A-Head headsets on touring bikes just makes a steel fork heavier than it needs to be and so stiff it is unnecessarily uncomfortable. If you need a strong fork fair enough but if not a road frame with a 1" steerer is always more comfortable, and a headset without drop-in races (usually a threaded headset) requires less preload and therefore the bike will usually steer better.

Agreed, 1-1/8" is over the top for a road bike although road hammer is arguably worse on a solid fork, I had my Bob Jackson changed to a 1" A-head set, I kept plenty of spacers above and below it and now can pull off the bars without removing the tape, brake levers, etc. and move the bars up or down, it does not look too clunky either. I don't think I've ever changed the bearings.
I don't doubt and indeed have threaded headsets that have lasted for years but that does not stop other methods that weren't readily available in the past from being better in the here and now not least because assembly and set up is far more straight forward.

I would no more recommend them to some one buying a new bike than I would recommend getting a cup & axle bottom bracket even though a good quality one fitted right might also last for years.

I think that from an engineering standpoint 1" A-Head has (with bearings that are good/strong enough....) quite a lot going for it. If you have a bike with a 1" alu or carbon steerer then it is a sensible choice.... (although having said that I really don't like an alu wedge piece bearing directly against a carbon steerer.....). However for practical reasons I wouldn't necessarily choose 1" A-Head over 1" threaded for a touring bike with a steel fork; not one I was going to keep for a while anyway. In addition to the possibility of a large height change being required at some point, the main reason is that whilst you can still get 1" A-Head headsets and stems etc at present, and there is a reasonable choice, I can't see that state of affairs lasting for ever.

By contrast I still fancy my chances of getting a 1" threaded headset in 20 years time, and quill stems etc (or at least some kind of adaptor) to match, too.

cheers

A lot of this thread is confusing the function of headsets with that of other components. Front loading is a function of stem design not headsets. Even if you can't find a front loading quill stem you want you can easily fit any stem to a bike with a threaded headset using an adaptor. Similarly blaming a headset design because the tab on a brake manufacturers canti hanger doesn't snugly fit the groove the frame builder put on the fork is off the mark too.

As the standards evolve and the market rationalises itself I think the common standards will be 1 1/8" unthreaded, 1.5" tapered and 1" threaded. So if i was using 1" unthreaded, 1 1/8" threaded or 1 1/4" unthreaded I'd be expecting future availability to be limited.

Having a length of steerer tube above the stem is good for adjustability but bad news for the wedding tackle if you go over the bars.

As far as I can see a good quality, well fitted amd well maintained headset is fine irrespective of whether it's threaded or not. Personal preferences for either are fine too but maintaining that one kind has some intrinsic superiority makes little sense to me.

I don't disagree with much of that, but I don't think it serves anyone very well to pretend that there is no difference, either.

A lot of A-Head headsets need more preload to work reliably (at which point any roughness in the bearings is blindingly obvious), yet have bearings that cannot resist high levels of preload that are easily applied.

If you went to a reasonably competent cycle mechanic with your touring bike he could fit you a threaded headset that might need adjusting once (after a few hundred miles) but otherwise would be expected to operate reliably for years with no further attention. By contrast a typical A-Head installation will need to be fiddled with many times over (there are usually many wearing faces that all bed in and continue to move and fret in service) and every time the handlebars are adjusted there is yet another opportunity to over-or under-preload the bearings.

IME the majority of A-Head bearing failures are related to excess preload being applied. Is this 'operator error'? Well yes, it is. But then again what genius decided that the top cap should have a bolt/key that allows about 15ftlbs (over 20Nm) to be easily applied by anyone with an allen key (genuinely anyone then...) who thinks 'it isn't tight enough', when the typical torque required (which cannot be accurately specified because of the stiction in the wedge piece...) is typically between 0.5 and 2 Nm? I think that this would qualify as extremely poor design. A 2.5mm allen key in an M6 bolt (or simply a knurled thumbwheel) would be about right. And every top cap should have a maximum torque setting on it at least.

cheers

So you can't overtighten a threaded headset with a stupid great spanner either?

Dave W wrote:So you can't overtighten a threaded headset with a stupid great spanner either?

...of course you can. But most cyclists don't need to adjust their threaded headsets from one year end to the next; by contrast most people do feel the need (or expect to be able) to move their handlebars from time to time, and/or get concerned if they detect what they think might be 'a loose bolt that needs tightening' when checking their bike over.

So (whilst possession of headset spanners is by no means any assurance that the owner knows how to use them... ) IME it is somewhat more commonplace for people to overtighten A-Head headsets than it is threaded ones.

cheers

Brucey wrote: ..........a threaded headset that might need adjusting once (after a few hundred miles) but otherwise would be expected to operate reliably for years with no further attention. ............

This is what I thought, but as you may remember, mine became contaminated with "weather", and all I did was leave it trusted to its seals believing it would be fine.

By the time I did clean and grease it, it was too far gone. Even though I lavished TLC on it for a few years, I eventually fitted a new headset. I loosen it off periodically now and inject grease into the gap, then do it up again. When the fancy takes me - 6 monthly? - I'll take it completely off and clean it.

I do not believe that any headset - 1" threaded or Ahead - will operate reliably for years with no further attention - not in British weather on British roads.

if you use good grease, mudguards, and don't do mad things (like wash your bike when it is upside down, or have a frame that leaks water into the head tube somehow) then even a completely unsealed (threaded) headset will last for years. I have several bikes that have been ridden extensively in wet weather and/or get left out of doors and I don't see the need to do anything to them more than once every five years or so. Some have gone a lot longer than that.

By contrast a (mudguardless) MTB or road bike in daily use (even with moderately effective seals) will benefit from a headset strip down once every three months or so.

As I have mentioned previously I don't think A-Head headsets are typically very weatherproof; I have often seen lower races contaminated with water that has dribbled down from above, and rusty steerers etc are commonplace.

cheers

Who fiddles with their handlebars from time to time? Do your arms shrink in the winter or something? Bars can be tilted easily without disturbing the incredibly difficult tension setting on an A headset. Once set my handlebars haven't been adjusted in years. In my opinion threaded steerer tubes offer far more chance of over tightening than an Aheadset. Two spanners at the same time with enormous leverage advantage.

I suppose the Aheadset sytem must be rubbish though because it's probably less than thirty years old.

Brucey wrote:if you use good grease, mudguards, and don't do mad things (like wash your bike when it is upside down, or have a frame that leaks water into the head tube somehow) then even a completely unsealed (threaded) headset will last for years. I have several bikes that have been ridden extensively in wet weather and/or get left out of doors and I don't see the need to do anything to them more than once every five years or so. Some have gone a lot longer than that.

I use good grease nowadays - maybe I didn't before - I use mudguards and never wash my bike upside down.

I remain to be convinced that they'll go for five years and be happy, and I'm NOT about to try it.

That's what happened to my BB too. Yes, the threads were greased and loosened, but it was the "sealed" bearings that I never considered, that became wrecked in less than five years. I reckon the headset is less likely to get as contaminated as the BB, but if one bearing system can be ignored, the others will be too.

Better safe than sorry.