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Re: Aheadset vs threaded headset

Posted: 3 Jan 2014, 10:59am
by meic
Who fiddles with their handlebars from time to time?


Not many of us because it is a hassle, I might* if it was as easy as just undoing a small bolt and moving.

Though I do have a bike with an adjustable stem and I have never bothered moving it around as typically that bike feels fine.

On my threaded headset bike, I am put off doing many adjustments by the prospect of unwinding all the bar tape, not much point saying that in theory that isnt due to it being threaded when all you can buy in real life is like that.

Re: Aheadset vs threaded headset

Posted: 3 Jan 2014, 11:00am
by jb
The correct way to tighten an A-head set is to tighten the top bolt hard spin the forks a few times then back the bolt off loose and retighten just enough to prevent loosening (or torque it up to the recomended setting if you have the means) then align the stem & tighten the clamp bolts. this will ensure that it is properly seated on the wedge.
Can't say as I've ever noticed the bearings become rough, not like your average threaded loose ball headset does when over tightened.

Re: Aheadset vs threaded headset

Posted: 3 Jan 2014, 11:45am
by Brucey
Dave W wrote:Who fiddles with their handlebars from time to time? ..... Once set my handlebars haven't been adjusted in years. ...


I think you have inadvertently answered your own question there :wink: ; the answer is 'nearly everyone with a new bike does...'.

BTW quite a lot of riders move the handlebars up and down with the seasons, to allow for winter clothing etc.

jb wrote: ...Can't say as I've ever noticed the bearings become rough, not like your average threaded loose ball headset does when over tightened.


Any headset with imperfectly smooth bearings will become rough when there is a lot of preload on it. My point is that

a) most A-head headsets NEED a lot of preload to work properly (unlike most threaded headsets) and
b) that well-intentioned folk apply more than enough preload quite unintentionally using an allen key with an A-Head and
c) I've only seen one or two headsets where the bearings won't quickly be irrecoverably damaged by such overtightening.

The minimum preload might be specified as 'that which is enough to prevent unwanted lateral movement in normal use'. With a headset that has 45 degree angular contacts and drop-in races, the minimum preload is approximately the same as the expected lateral service load. For an average bike/rider I estimate this is about 300Kg, although it could be less for a bike with a long headtube and more (a lot more) for one with a short head tube. A headset of this type with a lower preload will rattle in use and/or fret/wear on the abutting faces. Note that some A-Head installations have slightly squashy (rubber, plastic, badly fitting etc) parts in them; these can require more preload than expected in order not to allow movement in use.

The upper limit to the headset preload is determined by the maximum static load capacity of the bearing.

In service the lateral loading generates axial bearing loads. These add to the dead weight and the preload to generate the service loading on the bearing. So a bearing with (say) 300kg preload, 100kg dead weight load and 300kg lateral load will see ~600kg axial service load on the upper race, and about 700kg axial service load on the lower race. Shock loads will increase these values considerably.

The same bearing could easily be preloaded to 500kg (it doesn't take much torque on an allen key to do this; an M6 bolt will go to over two tonnes quite easily and even an M5 will usually do over a tonne). A 500Kg preload would generate service loads of ~800/900kg on upper and lower races respectively.

You can see that with a typical A-head headset (with drop-in bearing races) the service loads are determined (and indeed easily dominated) by the bearing preload.

By contrast a loose ball headset with fixed races and a 45 degree contact angle can be run with minimal preload; at (say) 100kg preload (which might generate a small rattle over bumps, but won't knacker the headset anytime soon, because it is a rolling not sliding contact) this would generate service loadings of 400/500kg on the bearings.

When trying to ride 'no hands' the service loads are lower and comprise almost entirely the bearing preload.

At any given condition, a rough bearing surface will feel less 'lumpy' etc in proportion to the service loading; so a 300kg preload headset will feel x3 as lumpy as a 100kg preload headset and a 500kg preload will feel x5 lumpier etc.

So I am somewhat critcal of headsets with drop-in races etc. As it happens, this means I am critical of A-Head headsets in practice, because they are the sort most often built this way, and where it is easiest to set the preload too high; IME a fraction of a turn more adjustment does generate a uniform axial displacement with a threaded headset (thus allowing elimination of play and minimal preload) but with an A-Head system this is not guaranteed, because there are more (springy) things to move and one of them is usually a sticky wedge. The second adjustment rarely behaves like the first, and if using torque to set a top cap, I very often find I have to release the wedge when making a second adjustment.

cheers

Re: Aheadset vs threaded headset

Posted: 3 Jan 2014, 11:53am
by Dave W
What a load of tripe. :lol:

Re: Aheadset vs threaded headset

Posted: 3 Jan 2014, 11:57am
by Brucey
Dave W wrote:What a load of tripe. :lol:


everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but some are not worth either having or stating.

Re: Aheadset vs threaded headset

Posted: 3 Jan 2014, 1:08pm
by Dave W
:D
The original poster only asked if there were any real advantages or disadvantages over the two systems. Many have pointed them out, It's just a bicycle not rocket science. Both systems work well, both systems do the same thing and both will handle normal weights - in the case of a loaded tandem at least double the normal weight. People are racing down mountainsides with threadless headsets, road racing with them, touring with them. They've been out for years. Some traditionalists still want threaded headsets the choice is there.

Re: Aheadset vs threaded headset

Posted: 3 Jan 2014, 1:13pm
by Mick F
What's wrong with the idea of a pair - or more - bearings that require no preload or adjustment?
Wheel hubs are going away from adjustable cup and cone bearings in favour of cassette bearings. It's only a small step to fit them in a headset. Wheel hubs can be tightened and a QR done up tight without affecting the bearings at all.

Re: Aheadset vs threaded headset

Posted: 3 Jan 2014, 1:36pm
by jb
There is a magnifying effect with forks that would make the play allowed in a hub to be noticable on a head set hence the pre-load.

Re: Aheadset vs threaded headset

Posted: 3 Jan 2014, 1:42pm
by Bicycler
Brucey wrote: IME the majority of A-Head bearing failures are related to excess preload being applied. Is this 'operator error'? Well yes, it is. But then again what genius decided that the top cap should have a bolt/key that allows about 15ftlbs (over 20Nm) to be easily applied by anyone with an allen key (genuinely anyone then...) who thinks 'it isn't tight enough', when the typical torque required (which cannot be accurately specified because of the stiction in the wedge piece...) is typically between 0.5 and 2 Nm? I think that this would qualify as extremely poor design. A 2.5mm allen key in an M6 bolt (or simply a knurled thumbwheel) would be about right. And every top cap should have a maximum torque setting on it at least.

Embarrassing really to think back now but I was that "anyone with an allen key" when I first got a threadless headset. Despite ridiculously overtightening the bolt I couldn't remove the play. The problem was I hadn't loosened the stem bolts first. It didn't seem obvious at the time. You live and learn.

Re: Aheadset vs threaded headset

Posted: 3 Jan 2014, 1:43pm
by Mick F
jb wrote:There is a magnifying effect with forks that would make the play allowed in a hub to be noticable on a head set hence the pre-load.
I don't see it like that.

Why not have four in there?
Top and bottom, plus two more all separated with sleeve spacers.

Forks are only a little longer than the wheel diameter. The bearings could be more accurate than wheel bearings and a bit bigger too. The only penalty would be weight.

Re: Aheadset vs threaded headset

Posted: 3 Jan 2014, 2:08pm
by jb
The head set of my motorcycle are just two deep groove cartridge bearings held in with a circlip; I expect the weight of the bike keeps them loaded always from the top. A cycle with no suspension & negligable weight would be different - they would 'chatter' themselves to bits.
Don't forget the magnifying length includes the fork ends to the road.

Edit: also witout pre-load you have only ever one or two balls taking the shock.

Re: Aheadset vs threaded headset

Posted: 3 Jan 2014, 2:21pm
by Mick F
Why don't bicycle cartridge wheel bearings chatter themselves to bits?
Possibly because they are continually turning, as opposed to only steering movements?

Re: Aheadset vs threaded headset

Posted: 3 Jan 2014, 4:56pm
by Brucey
a headset sees both axial and radial loads. That means either angular contact bearings or two bearings at each end. At the moment angular contact bearings are the most appropriate solution.

The bearings are either loose ball or drop-in cartridge bearings, mounted on an angled seat. The drop-in bearings need preload in order not to be loose on their mountings and rattle in service. Arguably if the structure is at all flexible (which it usually is) then again you will need some preload with any kind of bearing.

If the bearings were made a push fit on a diameter, you would have the devil's own game tolerancing them. Suitable bearings would have a thin wall (else be too heavy) and this would make them very flexible; they would be difficult to fit, and would flex in service (worse than the cartridges used at present do, I'd imagine). The flexing in the fit would be enough to leave an uncontrolled preload/clearance in the bearings.

I've been involved with machines that use such bearings and they were a Royal PITA to make work properly. You would need to tolerance the OD of the steerer and the ID of the frame to one another to micron tolerances in order to make it work, and if you get it wrong then the bearing inner will split when mounting, or the preload will immediately destroy the bearings.

Re the motorcycle headset; I've never seen one with standard deep groove bearings fitted. Plenty with angular contact bearings, and plenty with taper roller bearings too. I would suspect that the axial static load rating of standard deep groove bearings is nowhere near enough to allow them to be used for a headstock bearing; it is generally about 1/10th or less the radial load rating. I'd be interested to know what kind of bike and bearing that is.

cheers

Re: Aheadset vs threaded headset

Posted: 3 Jan 2014, 6:07pm
by jb
Well I could be wrong, they may be angular contact bearings but that's what it looks like to me the Haynes manual doesn't give much away and I can only remember from a brief glimpse a long time ago; I remember thinking it was odd then that's why it came to mind. The two bearings are identical though. (Its a Commando).

Re: Aheadset vs threaded headset

Posted: 3 Jan 2014, 7:32pm
by Brucey
your memory must be formidable; according to this page

http://www.nortonownersclub.org/support/technical-support-commando/steering-head-bearings

they are indeed a standard deep groove bearing 6205-2RS. That is pretty unusual, I wonder how many other bikes are like that?

Nice bike BTW!

cheers