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Tyres.....

Posted: 4 Jan 2014, 11:29am
by reohn2
........worth a read if you're not convinced:- https://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/01/ ... -too-wide/

Re: Tyres.....

Posted: 4 Jan 2014, 11:50am
by meic
I remain unconvinced about how far they have stretched the optimum size to.

Whenever I read his views on fat tyres, I see somebody trying to conjure evidence to support a view rather than analysing evidence to see what is happening. The comment about the extra weight being compared to carrying an extra water bottle is a good example of that.
Also in real life we have the issues of availability of high quality, lightweight tyres being only affordable in smaller (up to 28mm?) sizes.

Having said that I am not a convert, I do find his experiments interesting and informative, so I appreciate his efforts, even if I dont share his interpretation or conclusions.

As I frequently say you can not have a definitive best tyre size when riders come in different sizes.

Re: Tyres.....

Posted: 4 Jan 2014, 1:22pm
by Brucey
my takeaways from that are as follows;

a) good tyres are better than bad ones (WITIKA)

b) If you are going to ride on gravel-strewn or otherwise very bumpy surfaces, wider tyres are better than narrow ones (WITIKA)

c) That they couldn't (or wouldn't) see a 1% difference in aero drag in the wind tunnel as statistically significant, between two tyre sizes that are not that much different from one another.

d) That they don't either understand or have looked at everything that makes a difference here. You can't just change one thing, then measure one aspect of performance and draw a conclusion about everything else, because those things won't all stay the same.

e) The summary has failed to mention several potentially important results (from both their own research and that of others), presumably because they don't really agree with the main conclusion they would like to see. Amongst those results are (IIRC); i) the lowest Crr tyres they have ever tested were a set of 23mm racing tyres, ii) that tests on some batches of GB tyres have demonstrated the exact reverse i.e. that wider tyres are slower.

a) and b) WITIKA..? = 'Which I Think I Knew Already'.

In c) this says more about the inadequacies of the wind tunnel methodologies used and the chosen experiment as anything else. I guarantee that had they done a more sensible experiment to test the hypothesis that 'wide tyres are not slower' then they would have got a strong result. As it is they chose tyres that were only a little bit wider, in which case the true conclusion might be 'that tyres that are only a little bit wider might only be a little bit draggier' ..... WITIKA.... Had they wanted to find out the drag of 42mm tyres then they should have tested that, not the drag of narrower ones. However, if the photograph is anything to go by it isn't clear that the wheels were even turning in the wind tunnel tests, which IMV completely invalidates any conclusions you might draw about wheel drag; the top of a turning wheel is going at double the speed of the bike and can create a lot more drag, for example.

In d) I mean that they have not assessed the effect of wheel weight as a variable (and in fairness I can see why, it is complicated) but they also have not really allowed for the fact that when you fit a wider tyre to the same rim the wheel becomes a larger diameter, which also automatically lowers the Crr. IIRC both these factors (which flatter a wider, heavier tyre in coast-down tests) are not allowed for and are instead dismissed as 'statistically insignificant'. Well in isolation, each might be, but if you get enough of these things adding up, you can wind up drawing some duff conclusions.

For leisure riding, touring and bridepaths, I ride wide-ish tyres and I'm probably doing about 15-18mph a lot of the time. I don't like running wide tyres on skinny rims because the tyre can fold over during agressive cornering, and -contrary to what you might read elsewhere- it seems pretty evident that the external width of the rim (as well as the internal width) is important here. If I use a rim that is in constant proportion to the tyre width then the net weight increase is certainly signficant. Overall, on rough surfaces wider tyres are obviously better (I didn't need to be told this and nor should anyone else be... :roll: ) . I don't think wide tyres (32s rather than 25s say) slow me down very much the rest of the time either and if I'm more comfortable this is A Good Thing.

However as soon as you are planning to go faster than this, on roads that are reasonable tarmac, aero losses start to become more of a big deal. The wheels alone can account for tens of percent of the total aero drag and making them wider just increases that pro-rata (to a first approximation). The presently available tyres with the lowest measured Crr values on such surfaces are relatively skinny ones of about 23mm width. They are lightweight and have low aero drag too, when fitted on typical racing wheels. So if you are going racing that is probably what you should use, unless the roads are especially rough (i.e. 'normal' in some areas.... :wink: ) in which case there may be a net benefit to using a slightly wider tyre. If the surface is particularly smooth then narrower tyres/rims may be of benefit (e.g. track racing). They may not have seen a 1% difference in drag in the wind tunnel as statistically significant but if you go 1% slower in a time-trial you might have dropped ten or twenty places in a close field. You will notice that..... :roll:

Note that if you are planning to go slower than 15mph (perhaps sat bolt upright) then any rolling resistance benefit, even for part of your ride, may be a net gain because you may never go fast enough to incur any real aero penalty from wider tyres. Even if you do it will be a proportionally smaller amount of the whole anyway.

So overall, the answer to the question 'are wide tyres faster' is probably 'sometimes'. When the surface is rough and/or you are not really in a hurry.

If you want to exploit this possible advantage then you probably need to spend a bit (or a lot) more on your tyres than normal, and you may well sacrifice some strength, damage resistance, puncture resistance, and overall tyre longevity in the process. This won't necessarily make the tyres 'inadequate' for the task in hand so I'm normally happy to pay a bit more for nice rolling tyres, even if they don't last quite as long; but if I was commuting on glass strewn streets in the hours of darkness I'd have different priorities.

If you ask a different question which might be 'are wider (say +5mm) tyres very much slower?' -in a touring context- then the answer is 'no, not necessarily'. So if they confer another benefit such as comfort or the ability to go down bridepaths, they are a good choice.

cheers

Re: Tyres.....

Posted: 4 Jan 2014, 2:48pm
by mercalia
I remember reading a cycle magazine test of this issue very long time ago. they compared skinny tyres and fat non knobbly and found that the fat tyres rolled a bit better than the skinny ones. not a lot but certainly not worse. Their explanation was that fat tyres tend to deform at right angles to the motion so the roundness of the tyre not compromised whereas the skinnies have so little rubber they tended to deform in the direction of the motion, affecting the roundness of the tyre.

One thing u can do with fat tyres is to fill them with helium and lower the weight of your bike? the bigger the better...

Re: Tyres.....

Posted: 6 Jan 2014, 4:52pm
by mjr
I agree that it seems like selective blindness, especially when you get into the qualitative reasons like:
You will incur fewer flats, since you run wider tires at lower pressures, so they roll over obstacles that would get hammered into narrower tires.

That effect would be counteracted by incurring more flats, since you're rolling over more of the fairy's sharp debris because you're running wider tyres. It's harder to pick a 2 inch wide clear line than an inch one.

You’ll be safer, since a wider tire will be less affected by small cracks and railroad tracks.

Are street running track slot widths really wider than 28mm but less than 40mm? I'll look more closely next time I'm in part of a city that has some, but that seems like a fairly niche concern.

Road cracks seem to be either too tiny to grab 28mm or so wide that they'd still grab 40mm and should be repaired.

And so it continues...

Re: Tyres.....

Posted: 6 Jan 2014, 5:44pm
by Brucey
I was thinking much the same thing today as I walked home with a flat tyre. The pointy object responsible had gone into the 2" wide tyre near the edge. If I had been running narrower tyres I'd have missed it.... :roll:

cheers

Re: Tyres.....

Posted: 6 Jan 2014, 5:48pm
by BigFoz
Wider tyres can be run at lower pressures.

Yes, and if you're heavy that creates a lot of drag, and is no more resistant to pinch flats, as well as hoovering up more flints etc.

Re: Tyres.....

Posted: 6 Jan 2014, 10:11pm
by reohn2
BigFoz wrote:Wider tyres can be run at lower pressures.

Yes, and if you're heavy that creates a lot of drag, and is no more resistant to pinch flats, as well as hoovering up more flints etc.

Tyre pressures are directly related to load for tyre size so if your tyre pressure,whatever their section is correct for load there is less drag.
Of course if you over inflate tyres they will drag less but road holding especially in the wet,loose or less than perfect surfaces will be impaired and is also more uncomfortable.
FWIW,I've been riding 35mm good quality slick tyres for almost all of my cycling both on and off road for about four years,prior to that I rode 23,25&28s mainly Gatorskins for tarmac.I've ridden other tyres in the past,though nothing exotic,but for arguement's sake and because they're readily available,I'll stick to those as a small section tyre default example.
I also rode mostly Marathons(H308 and H368) in 28&32's for on and off road but I've tried Marathon Racers and Kojaks.
I never considered anything bigger as I believed they'd be a lot slower on tarmac sections.
When I first began using 37 slicks I was reluctant to lower the TP's below 75psi rear and 55front,as they rolled very well and were more comfortable than any other tyre I'd ridden,after a bit of experimenting and consulting the tyre drop chart:-http://www.bikequarterly.com/images/TireDrop.pdf , finally settling on 45f,70r for comfort and good rolling.
Currently I ride a tyre 37(35x35 actual on a 19mm internal width touring rim) that at 400g, weighs only 50g heavier than a 28mm Gatorskin,these tyres are great and after some experimenting I've found they are only slightly slower,approx 1mph over 60miles or so,than 28mm Gatorskins,but far more comfortable and on a bike weighing 2kg heavier!
I also find them more secure especially in wet weather and faster and more secure on fast descents of 40mph and above,soaking up bumps and tarmac imperfections.Plus I can head off down any unsurfaced road or track without a problem.
I don't puncture often,usually about twice in a 7to8,000mile year,last year I punctured three times in a low mileage 5,000(two thorns and one panel pin nail,of all things!),all three punctures were on off road bridleways and the nail on a towpath,none on tarmac.
My riding isn't fast,I usually average between 15 and 16mph for an all tarmac ride and as that tarmac deteriorates almost before my eyes I'm finding big supple tyres a big plus to my cycling.As someone who suffers from Osteo Arthitis,I haven't been this comfortable on a bike for a long time and post ride aches and pains are none existent.
I realise that some of the experiments in the linked article are a little less than ideal but I agree generally what's being said and TBH I didn't even bother to read about the windtunnel tests as that's about as far away from my cycling as it can get and I ride with m/guard fitted which I suspect would cause far more aero drag than a wide tyre would.
I own a bike that's at the last chance saloon purely due to it's limited tyre clearance(28s),as nice a ride as it is it's nowhere near as comfortable as an inferior Alu framed bike on good lightweight wide tyres.
My 2d's worth.