Briwet Bridge closure

PDQ
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Briwet Bridge closure

Post by PDQ »

Moderator note: this thread was split from viewtopic.php?f=6&t=83357 about the closure of Rocky Lane for the Haywards Heath development.

sirmy wrote:The decision to close a footway to pedestrians should have been taken purely on grounds of safety

Quite so, however-
At the moment, and for some considerable time to come, we have the situation in N.Wales where Briwet Bridge between Harlech and Porthmadog is closed to all traffic and trains. This includes pedestrians and cyclists.
The old and only river bridge has slightly subsidided due to construction work of a new crossing.
The route is part of Lon Las Cymru. The detour is over 8 miles along narrow, blind, busy and dangerous main roads.
While it is clear that for the weight of a train the bridge has probably become unsafe it is also clear that the wieght of a pedestrian or cyclist would not render it liable to collapse!

The safety aspect of such a decision to close a section of road or bridge is not something that is set in stone and with a little thought and flexabilty safety for cyclists and pedestrians could often be achieved with a few barriers and signs plus a willingness on the part of the building firm to compromise in a very small way.
That willingness seems to be sadly lacking at Briwet in spite of many pretty and expensive signs and adverts enstolling the virtues of the company's (Hochtief) policy of not allowing contruction work to interfere with the public's day to day needs.

For, with just a little thought and tolerance, access could easily be opened for the pedestrian and cyclist.

CTC please help.
thirdcrank
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Re: Q: When does "ROAD CLOSED" mean Road Closed?

Post by thirdcrank »

Re pont Briwet - Briwet Bridge mentioned above.

Here's Wiki (with what's presumably the official view:-

Pont Briwet is a Grade II listed wooden bridge which crosses the River Dwyryd, located near to Penrhyndeudraeth, Gwynedd in North Wales.
Built by the Aberystwyth & Welsh Coast Railway and opened by the Cambrian Railways in 1867, the privately owned toll road structure carries both the Cambrian Coast railway and a single-track road south to Harlech. Due to its age and weight restrictions, the road way section only carries cars, excluding lorries and ambulances. This results in an extended 8 miles (13 km) journey to access the Harlech road from Penrhyndeudraeth.[1]
In July 2010, the Welsh Assembly Government announced a £20million joint-project with Network Rail to replace the existing bridge by 2013 with a new structure. The old bridge was to have been retained due to its listed structure, and transformed into a pedestrian walkway,[1] but approval was granted for its demolition in February 2012.[2]
In November 2013, work to build the new bridge, destabilised the old one, closing the rail bridge indefinitely, and closing the 22 mile line from Harlech to Pwllheli, via Porthmadog [3] (My emphasis)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pont_Briwet

I only checked this because I'm familiar with this bridge. Health and safety is often a contentious issue, but if something is unsafe, no amount of inconvenience renders it any safer. All a matter of expert opinion, of course, but which genuine expert is going to risk being responsible for a loss of life, once the bridge has been declared unsafe? I can't imagine anything the CTC might achieve here.

On a separate but conneted issue,One of the things that amazes me about that part of Wales is how local people have to tolerate so many totally obsolete toll bridges. It can be a nightmare requiring an Act of Parliament + substantial compo to replace an old toll bridge when it's a valuable source of tax-free income granted in perpetuity in another era, although I don't think that necessarily applies here: I presume it was just a victorian railway company that decided it could make a bit extra by allowing road traffic to use the rail bridge, for a fee.
iviehoff
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Re: Q: When does "ROAD CLOSED" mean Road Closed?

Post by iviehoff »

thirdcrank wrote:Re pont Briwet - Briwet Bridge mentioned above.
Here's Wiki (with what's presumably the official view:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pont_Briwet

It's a bit out of date. In December Network Rail said the route would be closed until the new bridge is complete in 2015. http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-w ... il-6445894
That clearly wasn't good enough, and they are now trying to speed up and open the new bridge in May 2014. http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-w ... ed-6503154
The last link shows a picture which gives a clue why they have closed the old bridge even for pedestrians.
PDQ
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Re: Q: When does "ROAD CLOSED" mean Road Closed?

Post by PDQ »

thirdcrank wrote:I only checked this because I'm familiar with this bridge. Health and safety is often a contentious issue, but if something is unsafe, no amount of inconvenience renders it any safer. All a matter of expert opinion, of course, but which genuine expert is going to risk being responsible for a loss of life, once the bridge has been declared unsafe? I can't imagine anything the CTC might achieve here.

On a separate but conneted issue,One of the things that amazes me about that part of Wales is how local people have to tolerate so many totally obsolete toll bridges. It can be a nightmare requiring an Act of Parliament + substantial compo to replace an old toll bridge when it's a valuable source of tax-free income granted in perpetuity in another era, although I don't think that necessarily applies here: I presume it was just a victorian railway company that decided it could make a bit extra by allowing road traffic to use the rail bridge, for a fee.


Quite so but :-
That the bridge should have been replaced 30 years ago needs to be addressed to the (local?) politicians who heeded the local people not :(
Iviehoff's last link shows that while the deck is rotten in places several men can still stand on the bridge without it collapsing them into the river!!!.

Up until mid-November vehicles up to 2 tons were using the road where they are standing!! And quite a lot of vehicles too.
The road deck of the bridge has for many years needed regular patching repairs so why can't they patch it up again just to carry pedestrians, among them the single mothers with prams and need the bridge to shop. And cyclists both local and those travelling along Lon Las Cymru.
Personally I would rather take my chance on the bridge (even as it is) than use the exceptionally dangerous, long and unpleasant alternative. There is quite simply no other way.
Such small scale patching is peanuts. We have here, just immeadiately adjacent on the new bridge construction site, a multi-national firm spending £29 million of European taxpayers money, with all the equipment that entails. It could easily be done well enough for small loads within a day.

As I said just a little thought, tolerance and a willingness to compromise. Sadly lacking.
Brucey
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Re: Q: When does "ROAD CLOSED" mean Road Closed?

Post by Brucey »

FWIW I agree.
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thirdcrank
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Re: Q: When does "ROAD CLOSED" mean Road Closed?

Post by thirdcrank »

PDQ wrote: ... -
That the bridge should have been replaced 30 years ago needs to be addressed to the (local?) politicians who heeded the local people not ....


To be fair to local politicians, I suspect that until quite recently, this has been beyond their control.

My understanding is that the bridge has always been owned by the railway: originally private companies, then British Rail, Railtrack and more recently, Network Rail. Having travelled a few times by train along this route purely as a sightseer, I've been surprised but pleased that it survived the Beeching cuts. Any subsequent lack of public spending on the line has been the responsibility of Westminster. I'm only guessing, but it looks as though this is exactly the type of scheme that has benefited from devolved government.

As to whether the bridge could have been kept open pending repairs, all I'm saying is that once experts have said "No" that's generally going to be the end of it. It's a brave person these days who compromises over health and safety. The flipside of your "commonsense" observations is the outcry whenever there is an accident which everybody knew was just waiting to happen. Against a background of what seems to be a lot of local inconvenience and disruption to travel, I can't see how any intervention from the CTC would have made the slightest difference.
PDQ
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Re: Q: When does "ROAD CLOSED" mean Road Closed?

Post by PDQ »

thirdcrank wrote:To be fair to local politicians, I suspect that until quite recently, this has been beyond their control.

My understanding is that the bridge has always been owned by the railway: originally private companies, then British Rail, Railtrack and more recently, Network Rail. Having travelled a few times by train along this route purely as a sightseer, I've been surprised but pleased that it survived the Beeching cuts. Any subsequent lack of public spending on the line has been the responsibility of Westminster. I'm only guessing, but it looks as though this is exactly the type of scheme that has benefited from devolved government.

As to whether the bridge could have been kept open pending repairs, all I'm saying is that once experts have said "No" that's generally going to be the end of it. It's a brave person these days who compromises over health and safety. The flipside of your "commonsense" observations is the outcry whenever there is an accident which everybody knew was just waiting to happen. Against a background of what seems to be a lot of local inconvenience and disruption to travel, I can't see how any intervention from the CTC would have made the slightest difference.


Well I did put "local" in brackets! And while you may want to be fair about it, as for myself, now pushed for an opinion, I personally see it a huge failing on their parts all round :evil: .
Other less improtant priojects IMHO (community art for example) have often attracted large sums .

But we divert from the issue of the bridge.
The situation (in my understanding) was, prior to any constuction, that the bridge itself was owned and maintained by the railway but the access road was mostly privately owned with small approach sections the responsibilty of the local authority. A complex issue. The tolls were shared between the private owner and the railway.

Regarding the dangerous aspect. The roadway has never had a footway and it is part of the new scheme that one is now provided. It's fantastic (for those likely to live to see it :wink: ). So all pedestrians and cyclists have always run the gauntlet of the traffic on the very narrow curving and blind bridge.
This was particularly the case at night when the bridge was unlit and without any traffic control. Often only confident cyclists would take it on and I personally know several that would not do so.

The river side barrier of the bridge has always been extremely minimal, especially for a heavier vehicle. One touch and you're in!!!
My point is that we have all lived with a really dangerous bridge for years but there were never any health and safety issues then!! The suspicion is that the construction firm merely prefer to have an easy life and keep the bridge closed.
If the bridge was reopened for cyclists and pedestrians there might be a few old bikes dusted off and used again, such is the length of the detour. Good news.
As to intervention from the CTC, well the fact that Lon Las Cymru runs across should be a factor and for Sustrans too come to that. And access from the south could be achieved without any problems at all for construction traffic as the site is on the south side. Need to be there really to look, but there is a new temp access road.

Personally I would not use the word intervention but rather merely the raising of a voice in support of cycling facilities. Such a word from organisations always counts for more than one from the hapless individual.
So again I plead, CTC and Sustrans give it a look.
thirdcrank
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Re: Q: When does "ROAD CLOSED" mean Road Closed?

Post by thirdcrank »

I've no doubt that on occasions, roads are completely closed to avoid all the bother associated with things like temporary traffic lights and contractors doing the work in sections, rather than all in one go. (I've already posted as much above somewhere.) I've noticed that one of the specialist companies which provides these services around here seems to have more total closures + diversions than all the others put together. I could imagine that all sorts has gone on behind the scenes in this case. No matter what neglect there has been in the past, in terms of maintenance or planning replacements, anybody making a safety assessment now is governed by the present state of things, not how they ought to have been. That would still apply, even if somebody connected with this project had resorted to subtle sabotage to simplify the job.

I forgot to mention last night: On the subject of apportioning blame, 30 years ago was mentioned. I'm not one for blaming the Iron Lady for everything, but 30 years ago, the Westminster govt., had it's attention concentrated elsewhere.

OTOH, the bridge is a listed building. I've a feeling that in England, English Heritage deals with looking after them, including authorising any work including demolition. Presumably there's a similar body in Wales. :? So, when I come to think of it the CTC may have more expertise in this connection than I thought. :lol:
PDQ
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Re: Q: When does "ROAD CLOSED" mean Road Closed?

Post by PDQ »

Thanks for your support.
Just one final thought (I hope). All I want to point out is that to patch the roadway, sufficiently strongly for bikes and walkers, then allow meter and a half width access would be so easy and so cheap (on the scale of things) and imagine then we could all cycle and walk over the beautiful estuary without risking life and limb with the traffic that has blighted the bridge for so long. It could (sort of)be a high point on one's tour :D
It just needs a willingness and a little tolerance and thought.
bromptonrail
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Re: Q: When does "ROAD CLOSED" mean Road Closed?

Post by bromptonrail »

As I understood the reason for the closure of the railway bridge was that work on a temporary bridge was causing the railway bridge to move, resulting in buckling of the track. The surface condition of the road is a secondary matter if the whole bridge is moving.

Arriva Trains Wales have removed by road the trains trapped by the sudden closure of the bridge.

Yes, pedestrians and cyclists are much less heavy than trains, but no engineer (or H&Sprofessional) is going to allow unrestricted use by the public. "More than my jobs worth mate"
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PDQ
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Re: Q: When does "ROAD CLOSED" mean Road Closed?

Post by PDQ »

bromptonrail wrote:es, pedestrians and cyclists are much less heavy than trains, but no engineer (or H&Sprofessional) is going to allow unrestricted use by the public. "More than my jobs worth mate"

Indeed they are and that is a good deal of my point.
I am not interested in " more than my jobs worth" type answers, but in constructive argument.
The bridge is not unsafe for such users it just needs a couple of planks replacing. And as we start to quantify the risk of using the bridge, we must also take into account the danger of the alternative. Believe me it is very dangerous and unpleasant.
My appeal is that it would take so little to see it opened to walkers and pedallers.
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gaz
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Re: Q: When does "ROAD CLOSED" mean Road Closed?

Post by gaz »

I have a passing knowledge of the bridge, having used it by car whilst holidaying in the area. I have a passing knowledge of the alternative route. I have not cycled either.

Sustrans have placed a notice on their mapping that the bridge might be closed, with links to a webpage which confirm that it is closed. I wouldn't expect any further action from them.

In terms of constructive arguments, they are going to be very difficult to form but here are my thoughts:

In the original schedule of works was the old bridge going to be left open until the new bridge was complete, or would it have been necessary to close it entirely at some stage in the works to facilitate completion of the new structure and/or its approaches?

If there was going to be a "complete closure" then the counter argument to re-opening will be that such closure has simply been reached earlier than anticipated and/or will last longer than anticipated.

Does closing the bridge entirely allow works to progress faster? e.g. was the choice between allowing pedestrian/cycle access with a completion date in 2015 or closing all access and completing the new bridge more swiftly.

Again if complete closure means a significantly faster return to complete access you are going to have a much harder time rallying local support.

The alternative route is entirely on general purpose roads open to all traffic. Does the route have a poor accident record (particularly cyclist/pedestrian)?

Unfortunately if the KSIs are not there to demonstrate the alternative route is unsafe it will be considered safe. It will be very hard to evidence that there are no relevant KSIs because cyclists and pedestrians have been scared off, however true that may be.

The other problem you face is that the wheels of officialdom turn very slowly. A legal process has closed the bridge as an unsafe structure, a legal process will be required to re-open it to cyclists and pedestrians. Time and money will need to be applied to that; you'll need to convince the authorities that it is a vote winner. If it delays construction of the new bridge it will be a vote loser.

Just my thoughts.
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RickH
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Re: Q: When does "ROAD CLOSED" mean Road Closed?

Post by RickH »

PDQ wrote: The bridge is not unsafe for such users it just needs a couple of planks replacing.

From one of the links previously
Daily Post wrote:...specialist contractors had found a quarter of the wooden beams holding the road deck were rotten...(link)

That seems a lot more than "a couple of planks" - it's 1/4 of the beams holding them up! :shock:

Rick.
Former member of the Cult of the Polystyrene Head Carbuncle.
PDQ
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Re: Q: When does "ROAD CLOSED" mean Road Closed?

Post by PDQ »

We know the bridge is rotten that is why they are replacing it and not beforetime. It was unsafe but not just structurally!!!
However the road was carrying vehicles up to two tons in mid November and therefore with a little work for pedestrians it could be made safe again quickly and easily. It had been patched up, quite literally, for years and for the weight of road traffic.
Vehicles of more than two tons were sneaking across at night and they were held up ok.
FWIW in the nineties I saw a special excursion train on the bridge; 2 locomotives hauling a full sized train. Each loco had a plate on it saying 90 tons and they were close coupled! and I was on the bridge in a car waiting to pay! It was a very strong structure.
So I stick by my assertion that it is safe for pedestrians. It can't have deteriorated from carrying 2 tons in November to not being able to support a few men in that short time.
The alternative is much more dangerous for a cyclist.

6 good planks and a bit of goodwill will see it right for cyclists. :D
PDQ
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Re: Q: When does "ROAD CLOSED" mean Road Closed?

Post by PDQ »

Gaz cheers for your interest. I will try to answer.
gaz wrote:Sustrans have placed a notice on their mapping that the bridge might be closed, with links to a webpage which confirm that it is closed. I wouldn't expect any further action from them.

Bit sad accepted it without any question then.

gaz wrote:In the original schedule of works was the old bridge going to be left open until the new bridge was complete, or would it have been necessary to close it entirely at some stage in the works to facilitate completion of the new structure and/or its approaches?

Not really the scheme was to build the new railway bridge first, with single track roadway alongside then when that was completed the old bridge to be demolished and a second bridge constructed adjacent for the second lane of traffic plus footway /cycleway.

gaz wrote:If there was going to be a "complete closure" then the counter argument to re-opening will be that such closure has simply been reached earlier than anticipated and/or will last longer than anticipated.

There was never to be a complete closure just from time to time in the initial phase.

gaz wrote:Does closing the bridge entirely allow works to progress faster? e.g. was the choice between allowing pedestrian/cycle access with a completion date in 2015 or closing all access and completing the new bridge more swiftly.

Not really, new temp access roads have been put in for the heavy traffic already. South side has absolutely no conflict at all. North side has a crossing of construction traffic at one point.

gaz wrote:The alternative route is entirely on general purpose roads open to all traffic. Does the route have a poor accident record (particularly cyclist/pedestrian)?

Yes it has a very poor accident record including several fatalities in the last 10 years. All motorised traffic AFAIK. The additional traffic it now carries(because of closed bridge) make it a cyclist's nightmare on some sections. It is busy, narrow,and blind. No footways at all.

gaz wrote:Unfortunately if the KSIs are not there to demonstrate the alternative route is unsafe it will be considered safe. It will be very hard to evidence that there are no relevant KSIs because cyclists and pedestrians have been scared off, however true that may be.

I don't know what KSIs are :( . But the route is demonstrably unsafe.

gaz wrote:The other problem you face is that the wheels of officialdom turn very slowly. A legal process has closed the bridge as an unsafe structure, a legal process will be required to re-open it to cyclists and pedestrians. Time and money will need to be applied to that; you'll need to convince the authorities that it is a vote winner. If it delays construction of the new bridge it will be a vote loser.

I'm doing my best :D
Time is ok but not money though, that would seem like stacked odds and not in the public interest.
It will not delay construction at all.

CTC could help. Sustrans where are you?
Last edited by PDQ on 23 Jan 2014, 8:51pm, edited 1 time in total.
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