44 32 22 touring chain set

[garygkn]

My friend has a Condor Heritage 2003 lugged model. The frame is a traditional steel touring frame and I think that the seat tube is the old standard 28.2?

It is equipped with Campagnolo 9 speed triple groupset. 53/42/30.

We had a discussion about lowering the gearing as it has been over 5 years that he has used the outer 53t ring.

On route that we came up with was to fit a Stronglight ZD2 triple with TA rings 44/32/22 available from SPA Cycles.

We realize that a new bb will be required and a replacement front mech as the Campag is a road triple with the curve following a 53t ring.

What would be a good quality compatible front mech with bottom pull to be operated by Campagnolo 9 speed Ergo shifters?

From memory I can recall that in the 90’s XTR did a band on 28.6 front mech. Is there anything suitable these days? We could source an XTR from the 90’s if required.

http://velospec.com/components/shimano/fdm961

Any feed back most welcome.

[tatanab]

Try what you have first. I have Campag triple front mechs working happily with a 40 T big ring (run as 40/24 double) and also with a 46 big ring (run as 46/36/24 triple). This is on 4 machines so it is no fluke.

28.6 is the dimension you are thinking of.

[garygkn]

Thanks.
This is good news - less bits to replace.
Also you're correct I was thinking 28.6.

[MGate]

You should be fine staying Campag - I changed to a stronglight 24 26 36 from a 30 40 50 Campag 9 speed triple. You'll have to lower the position of the front mech though to help trace the curve of the rings - but even if they aren't perfect it should work fine.

BB Campag are ISO stronglight are JIS - these are square taper standards. If you fit the stronglight to the Campag BB it will come further up the shaft of the BB BUT it may be fine. I happily run 2 such set ups and have no worries. Sheldon brown says if you can get away with it then it's fine and long as you aren't taking them on and off all the time. A JIS BB won't break the bank anyhow.

[garygkn]

More good news.
Much appreciated.

[Valbrona]

As per previous answers, that FD should work just fine. I have used a Camapg triple FD of some sort for a long time now - current one is Record triple. I have found that they need at least a gap of 8 teeth between chainrings for good shifting. I use mine with 46/36/26, so you might want to go a bit bigger than the proposed 44/32/22.

Another issue is that the tip of the cage might bottom out against the RH chainstay - depends how chunky the chainstays are - and this will prevent you getting the FD low enough down the seat tube.

And FD needs to be clamp on really to do what you are doing. Or if braze on I guess you could remove the bracket with a whack from a lump hammer, or not.

[garygkn]

It's a nice bike and luckily does not have a braze on for the FD.
44/32/22 is probably the highest he will want to go?
He originally looked at 42/32/22.
Thank for the help.

[CJ]

The problem shift on a triple is also the most vitally needed shift: from middle to inner when already going uphill - and then it gets steeper!

This is a problem because the bit of the mech that does the shifting, i.e. the outer cage, is waaaay too far above the middle ring teeth, to derail the chain leftwards with the same certainty as it slices the chain off the outer ring.

You can make this shift less of a problem, more certain and reliable, by making the middle ring not so much smaller than the outer. By my measurements, confirmed by Valbrona, the smallest workable difference permitted by a Campag triple mech (due to the depth of the inner cage) between outer and middle is eight teeth.

Given that shifting is likely to be somewhat compromised already by the fact that all the rings are generally smaller (i.e. more sharply curved) than this mech is designed for, I would recommend 44,36,22 and discourage any more outer-middle difference than 44,34,22.

Valbrona also makes a good point about chainstay conflict. Here's how to check how much smaller you can go.

1) Make sure the front mech is already adjusted to clear your existing outer ring teeth by the recommended 2mm.
2) Shift down to inner ring.
3) Measure the height of the gap under the tail end of the cage, to the top of the chainstay (or gear cable if it runs above it) with a ruler - or preferably a vernier caliper - held parallel to the bike's seat tube.
4) Divide this gap distance, in millimetres, by two, and that is the number of teeth smaller you can make the outer ring.

So: if you want to reduce from a 53 outer to a 44, with the same mech, you need already to have a gap as big as 18mm under the tail end of that mech. You'll be lucky!

But don't worry if the outer and/or middle have to be bigger than you planned, the inner can still be just as small as 22. Front mechs always have loads more capacity than they claim and inner difference is seldom critical. The chain falls onto it just the same and shifting up is all about mashing the chain into the teeth of the next bigger ring. Once it catches your pedalling will carry it up just the same from whatever depths. (I run two bikes, one a tandem, with 18 and 19 tooth inner-middle differences and they shift well - because their middle rings are almost as close to the mech as an outer.)

[garygkn]

Thanks you Chris the chain set has not been ordered yet so i will point out what you have said and get this information digested.
Would a compatible XTR front mech make the 44 32 22 be a better bet? No compromising?

[CREPELLO]

On route that we came up with was to fit a Stronglight ZD2 triple with TA rings 44/32/22 available from SPA Cycles.

I presume that you mean XD2 chainset, but that won't go down to 44 or 42 outer, will it? So a Shimano standard 104mm BCD outer pattern is what you'll need. I think Spa still sell there own 104 CS.

An alternative to the Campag FD is a Shimano MTB FD - the cable pull is almost identical.

[blackbike]

Front MTB mechs for narrow diameter frame tubes as found on touring frames are very hard to get now.

For my tourers I've adopted following solution.

Get a chicken which has one of those quite thick tinfoil trays from the supermarket.

Cook and eat the chicken.

Cut the tray into thin strips and use them as spacers to enable a wide tube front mech to fit a narrower frame tube.

This is not a stopgap solution.

I've done this both my old 531 tourers in order to fit them with LX front mechs and they've been rock solid for thousands of miles.

[Valbrona]

On route that we came up with was to fit a Stronglight ZD2 triple with TA rings 44/32/22 available from SPA Cycles.

I presume that you mean XD2 chainset, but that won't go down to 44 or 42 outer, will it? .

The XD2 triple is 110/74 BCD, so outers of 44 or 42 are possible - if you can get them. You could use a middle ring as an outer if you turn it back to front. Highpath Engineering once modified a 42 inner ring so that I could use it as an outer, and to do this they machined recesses on the outside.

[CJ]

Thanks you Chris the chain set has not been ordered yet so i will point out what you have said and get this information digested.
Would a compatible XTR front mech make the 44 32 22 be a better bet? No compromising?

The problem of new MTB mechs on old road/touring bikes is not so much the lack of 28.6mm fitting options (most do come with shims to adapt their native 34.9 clamp down to that diameter as well as 31.8 ), but chainline.

The standard MTB/trekking triple chainset chainline (distance to middle ring to middle of frame) is now 50mm or wider and a lot of the current crop of mechs won't shift in far enough to work anything significanlty less. That's already pretty bad on a MTB/trekking bike with 135mm rear hub width, on which the middle sprocket chainline is 45mm. So middle ring is already one sprocket further out than it ought to be, making it less efficient in bottom sprocket, and middle-bottom is a much-used gear by most tourists, who for a variety of reasons tend to be reluctant to engage their inner ring unless absolutely necessary. This results in long and hard usage of middle-bottom, up almost any and every hill! But some touring and all racing bikes have 130mm rear hubs. Campag don't make anything wider, so it's a racing certainty that the subject of this post has a rear chainline of only about 43mm, so will have an even worse alignment with a mountain chainset and mech.

And then there's the subtle matter of chainstay angle, which I won't go into here, for although it does affect shifting the effect is not too bad, except to say that the higher angle of the chainstay on a road bike (due to its bigger wheel and lower bottom-bracket) makes is probable that the MTB mech will clash with the chainstay on this bike when mated with such small chainrings - whereas on a mountain-bike it will just clear the chainstay.

My advice is to stick with the mech you already have, and look to the chainline of whatever chainset you propose to fit. Make it as close as you can for most efficient use of middle ring and so the outer may be some use too!

The '104' chainset sold by Spa Cycles (the only one that accepts rings as small as 22, so that must be the one the OP means) looks like a MTB chainset to me and is described as requiring a 107mm bottom-bracket. That's as short as they come, so if it has the usual 50mm chainline on that length of axle, that'll be what you're stuck with. You need to check that with Spa. It's possible they sell it with a 107mm BB for that very reason: to provide a narrower chainline that's more compatible with a road touring bike. Otherwise, I suggest changing your plans to the XD chainset, which unfortunately won't accept a smaller ring than 24.

If you want a nice, close chainline AND a 22 inner: Middleburn can supply. You'll not have much change out of £300, but will get a very fine chainset!

[garygkn]

Chris many thanks for your comprehensive and helpful reply.
One option that I was considering was to buy an NOS 9 speed XTR 28.6 clamp on?
But for now we will follow your advice and see how the Campag front mech plays out.

Much appreciated,
Gary

[Brucey]

SJS sell an eccentric shim that allows a larger diameter front mech to fit a smaller seat tube, and brings the mech as close to the seat tube as possible. A bottom swing MTB mech can often be used on a tight chainline this way.

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-eccentric-front-mech-shim-286-to-349-black-plastic-hand-finished-split-prod6448/

cheers