Cycling UK Forum

My daughters education was damaged by striking ban the bomb teachers. Despite being bright she got just two GCEs. She lacked motivation. The only people she clicked with were her art teacher and the sax playing head. However, this year she will sing at 16 music festivals all around the world so perhaps they did her a favour because she has a career that most young women would die for, but its all due to her own talent and determination.

Good teachers not only teach, they inspire, we cannot do without them, motivation is one of their most important functions that a computer based teaching machine cannot give you. Getting kids to take an interest and work hard is not an easy task, I fondly remember the teachers who motivated me vividly after 50 years.

I am not a teacher but I do think teachers have been mucked around something rottern by successive governments for many years. Its easy to criticize them, be jealous of their holidays and secure pensions but we need great teachers, they craft the future.

Al

Of course teachers only work 1265 hours over 39 weeks a year, don't they?

My very biased view is they work bloody hard for not a huge salary. 7.30am - 6.30pm weekdays and about 15 hours extra spread over the week...easy eh?

Managing a class of 30 teenagers who have been brought up on a diet of xbox, ps4, computer games made for over 18s, up until the early hours playing them, parents/carers who don't give a toss as long as said teenager yoof is out of their home during the day, crappy diet reinforced by gallons of fizzy sugar drinks, news items full of doom, gloom and crappy pensions at 76 years of age, only role models on BGT and ex factor, lack of respect for authority....


Always the teacher at fault and how dare they even contemplate going on a day's strike (authorised under statute of law) after all other avenues of protest about salary, pensions and working conditions have been exhausted?

All the above for £25 a day (before tax and insurance of course), constant observations and monitoring by senior staff, unachievable targets set for kids who don't want to even be in school.

Those who teach, teach. Those who can't, complain that teaching is easy and they could do after a couple of hours of you tube videos.

Yeah, right.

I left school fifty years ago, and I can't remember being inspired by anyone. I couldn't wait to leave and get a job (there was no unemployment in those days). My late wife was a teacher and she always said teaching was a pretty easy option for those unaquiped for a more demanding career. For as long as I can remember teachers have been grumbling about their conditions.

How often do we hear about soft option curriculums rather then the subjects like sciences that we really need? This is one of the problems with performance related pay. The system encourages the chasing of statistics rather than the persuit of excellence.

Monsieur wrote:Of course teachers only work 1265 hours over 39 weeks a year, don't they?

My very biased view is they work bloody hard for not a huge salary. 7.30am - 6.30pm weekdays and about 15 hours extra spread over the week...easy eh?

From my years of working in both private and public sectors those are pretty easy hours. I certainly used to work far far longer hours, never ever got overtime and looked at on a hourly rate I was probably on a lower hourly pay rate that many teachers.

But that was the nature of the jobs I did and my situation (single unattached male - so you get "landed" with all the "needs doing now" projects).

Ian

Psamathe wrote:

Monsieur wrote:Of course teachers only work 1265 hours over 39 weeks a year, don't they?

My very biased view is they work bloody hard for not a huge salary. 7.30am - 6.30pm weekdays and about 15 hours extra spread over the week...easy eh?

From my years of working in both private and public sectors those are pretty easy hours. I certainly used to work far far longer hours, never ever got overtime and looked at on a hourly rate I was probably on a lower hourly pay rate that many teachers.

But that was the nature of the jobs I did and my situation (single unattached male - so you get "landed" with all the "needs doing now" projects).

Ian

My point was the 1265 hours is the contracted hours - 2200 is nearer the mark so not the lazy, workshy complainers teachers are sometimes made out to be

tatanab wrote: All but the lowest grades look quite reasonable to me. http://www.nasuwt.org.uk/consum/groups/ ... 011343.pdf

That's not very much compared to other professions requiring university degrees. A little more than a decade ago, schools were struggling to find qualified people who wanted to teach. There weren't enough teachers to go around. So they raised the salaries to attract more people into teaching. And it worked for a while. But they haven't given them raises to keep up with it, so they are headed for the same problem again.

tatanab wrote:

Vorpal wrote:In the meanwhile, reductions in staff and overcrowding in schools mean that they have more to do.

I do not believe this. My schooling days were 1957 to 1970. At no time were classes smaller than 30 which seems to be regarded as terrible these days. Maybe the overall size of the school is greater and there are no classrooms standing empty as there would have been for some periods in my time. Reduction in staff - we did not have teaching assistants or anybody else except that one person standing at the front of the class.

Perhaps not, but back then the administrative assistants did much of the paperwork, made copies of lessons to be handed out, typed up things for the teachers, etc. These days, there's *lots* more paperwork (risk assessments, student assessments, documentation about how this lesson or that fits into national curriculum, forms for the students who opt out of religion education, forms for the students to go on class trips...), and only the teachers to do it. Also, the numbers of specialist teachers have been greatly reduced. So, where some teachers would get a little break a couple of days per week while the students (or some students) did art or music with the art or music teacher, now the *classroom* teacher also has to learn how teach that stuff, too, if the children are going to be exposed to it. I several teachers, and none can actually complete their work during a normal working day. When I was working with the schools there were always people there, early and late. The teachers I know take their work home, and do lessons, or correct school work after their own children go to bed at night.

tatanab wrote:

Vorpal wrote:They instill enthusiasm for learning, introduce children to things their parents may not teach them,

Good teachers do this, and I count myself fortunate to have been taught by the last of those who had served time during WW2 etc and who all retired in the early 1970s. These people had done jobs, then been in the military (probably), then come into education. I do not recall any strikes when I was at school. I am no more impressed by modern career teachers than I am by career politicians.

Most teachers have done other things before they taught, even if it was working in a shop or waiting on tables to make money for university tuition. My daughter's last teacher in the UK had a business degree and worked in Japan for a few years before going into teaching. A couple of my former colleagues left industry to go into teaching. Most teachers have something about which they are enthusiastic, and rubs off on the children. I've seen it in action, and it's lovely to see.

tatanab wrote:

Vorpal wrote:The school system also provides what is effectively free child care, so the parents can work (and contribute to the economy).

This is compulsory unless the child has home schooling.

Education is compulsory from 5 to 16. Education for so many hours per day is not necessary, and in other countries, it often starts later, and younger children have shorter school days. So, it is effectively free child care, even it is also compulsory education.

tatanab wrote:

Vorpal wrote:A girlfriend in the late 70s was a teacher at about the time "the child is right" type attitudes became fashionable, and I have a sister who is a teaching assistant, so I do have a partial insight. My views are also coloured by TV programmes. On a recent one showing how good teachers are I was amazed to see a teacher congratulating little Johnny on his answer to a question even though the answer was plainly wrong - actually the answer was probably right as far as the teacher was concerned because he may not have understood the nuances of technical language.

Sorry -I am just a senile old git who cannot understand the PROFESSIONAL people can be in unions and strike so regularly.

Some of what teachers need to do is encourage children to try, even if they don't know the right answer. Otherwise, they will never have a go.

Teachers are professionals. If they were treated that way, they wouldn't need to strike.

Monsieur wrote:

Psamathe wrote:

Monsieur wrote:Of course teachers only work 1265 hours over 39 weeks a year, don't they?

My very biased view is they work bloody hard for not a huge salary. 7.30am - 6.30pm weekdays and about 15 hours extra spread over the week...easy eh?

From my years of working in both private and public sectors those are pretty easy hours. I certainly used to work far far longer hours, never ever got overtime and looked at on a hourly rate I was probably on a lower hourly pay rate that many teachers.

But that was the nature of the jobs I did and my situation (single unattached male - so you get "landed" with all the "needs doing now" projects).

Ian

My point was the 1265 hours is the contracted hours - 2200 is nearer the mark so not the lazy, workshy complainers teachers are sometimes made out to be

This illustrates the different standards and expectations people have. Because from my career experience 2200 hrs would have been fantastic. I was way above that (way way above it).

And if 1265 are contracted hours then the salaries reference earlier are pretty good (given the hours).

I'm not saying teachers are not valuable to society, not saying that many of the educational changes this government are pushing through are not worthy of strikes (because I don't know as I don't follow it all in detail and am in no real position to assess the impacts of what is reported). I'm just commenting on the pay/workload (which I believe strikes are about).

Ian

If Teaching is so easy, well paid and such short hours then why are the people who are saying so not doing it?
If you want an idea of what it is like then your local Scout or Youth Group need adults desperately. The reason is simply that people who have been involved for years are leaving.
If you can do this after a few hours of video watching then you are obviously what is needed to solve the problems of adult retention.

If it is so good they why do so many new Teachers not finish their probationary year?
Why are so many older Teachers leaving Teaching? Some to become Teaching Assistants.

Psamathe wrote:This illustrates the different standards and expectations people have. Because from my career experience 2200 hrs would have been fantastic. I was way above that (way way above it).

And if 1265 are contracted hours then the salaries reference earlier are pretty good (given the hours).

My experience also. For many years I worked around 3000 hours and gave up 15 days of my holiday entitlement, so took only about 10 days and no time at all off sick (I'm a cyclist so I'm healthy). Why? Because I considered myself professional and was interested and involved in what I was doing - projects were generally underestimated which did not help. Most of my time I was an electronics design engineer and later involved in airworthiness. I certainly recall a teachers strike in about 1985 where the impoverished junior teacher on TV news could not survive on a salary at the same level as me (with 10 years experience) and had to take an evening bar job, whereas I considered myself fairly comfortable - but those are of course just personal expectations.

I agree that teaching in these undisciplined days is a very stressful choice, but it is just that - a choice. Conditions such as pay, pensions and personal performance etc have changed many times in my working life, so why should teachers and other public sector workers be immune?

We should of course also remember that teachers (like nurses, firefighters, etc) actually contribute something important to society, unlike many in the private sector whose real reason for being is only to make rich people richer .

Yes we need teachers - it is the second most important job in society.

First is parenthood.

[XAP]Bob wrote:http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LckJQ15fhFM/Ul_ZnxEQqbI/AAAAAAAAAlU/MVeb05fgU8Y/s1600/Gove+turtle.jpg

.

Edwards wrote:If Teaching is so easy, well paid and such short hours then why are the people who are saying so not doing it?

I've no idea if I could or could not teach (as I've never tried). But different jobs appeal to different people and just because somebody "can" do something does not mean they "must" do something. People might be capable of several different jobs and they might chose one career over another for a variety of different reasons.

Edwards wrote:If you want an idea of what it is like then your local Scout or Youth Group need adults desperately. The reason is simply that people who have been involved for years are leaving.

A bit "off-topic" but I had been told by somebody who does supervise/teach sport to kids that a lot of men have left helping e.g. Scout and Youth groups because of the risk of being caught even looking towards one of the children and then the ensuing accusations, investigations and destruction of their lives before it is established the accusations were completely groundless.

Ian

Edwards wrote:If Teaching is so easy, well paid and such short hours then why are the people who are saying so not doing it?
If you want an idea of what it is like then your local Scout or Youth Group need adults desperately. The reason is simply that people who have been involved for years are leaving.
If you can do this after a few hours of video watching then you are obviously what is needed to solve the problems of adult retention.

If it is so good they why do so many new Teachers not finish their probationary year?
Why are so many older Teachers leaving Teaching? Some to become Teaching Assistants.

All of that is true of many professions.
I'm a computer programmer, we get people fresh from uni who can't program for toffee and go off to do other things. Many don't make the probationary period, lots of older programmers who can no longer keep up with the technology leave (often to become university lecturers).

The problem is the usual, it's worth paying good money for the best people. Trouble is that most aren't the best people but from what I've seen in the public sector it's a lot harder to get rid of the crap and pay the good ones more.

As for all the supposed hours, I know a couple of teachers and they don't work anything like the hours people claim. Perhaps it varies by school/region but something doesn't add up...