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Re: Do we need teachers
Posted: 23 Apr 2014, 1:31pm
by simonineaston
Re: Do we need teachers
Posted: 23 Apr 2014, 1:38pm
by Vorpal
from the article
teachers carried out more unpaid overtime in 2013 than any other profession
bears out what I have observed.
Re: Do we need teachers
Posted: 23 Apr 2014, 1:46pm
by kwackers
Vorpal wrote:from the article
teachers carried out more unpaid overtime in 2013 than any other profession
bears out what I have observed.
I can't speak for primary school teachers but of the three secondary school teachers I personally know - they don't work anywhere near 60 hours!
Re: Do we need teachers
Posted: 23 Apr 2014, 1:57pm
by kwackers
georgew wrote:Here's the thing.
When someone describes teaching in such glowing terms and sees it as such an easy job that the "ordinary" man on the street can walk in and do it, and then goes on to talk of it being well paid, having "cushy" pension arrangements and all, it does seem reasonable that the speaker sees this job as attractive and would be expected to pursue it. Now I have no idea as to why you didn't choose to do this
Why would I choose teaching over my chosen career? A career I'm actually good at? I don't follow your argument - or are you claiming that because I didn't choose teaching I'm not allowed a say in how my tax money is spent? Or I'm not allowed to criticise?
If that's true then my apologies because I didn't realise that was how the game was played...
I don't really follow what your argument is - are you saying all teachers are good? Are you saying that bad teachers are quickly removed? Are you saying that teachers are special and deserve better pay and pensions than most other careers regardless of their ability?
Speaking as someone who's struggled through the system and as a parent I can count the number of 'good' teachers I've met on one hand so whatever your opinion my experience doesn't back that up - and my experience is what I base my opinions on.
As a summary my entire argument is based on the principle of: Pay them what they're worth, but get rid of the crap ones. What's wrong with that?
Re: Do we need teachers
Posted: 23 Apr 2014, 2:08pm
by simonineaston
kwackers wrote: I can count the number of 'good' teachers I've met on one hand
They don't have to be 'good', they just have to get the job done, like any other trained, skilled professional like nurses or a doctor or a lawyer - you're just lucky if you come across a 'good' one, just like you'll be lucky if you meet a 'good' nurse, doctor or lawyer.
try to imagine the world
without teachers...
Re: Do we need teachers
Posted: 23 Apr 2014, 2:14pm
by kwackers
simonineaston wrote:try to imagine the world
without teachers...
Is it that difficult?
We were teaching people trades for centuries before teachers came along for the masses.
I wouldn't claim it's an ideal situation for the 'modern' world but it got us out of the stone age and into industrialisation.
Re: Do we need teachers
Posted: 23 Apr 2014, 3:00pm
by Si
The thing about the teachers vs the "real world" / private sector debate is this:
I worked in the private sector for years (as a senior software developer doing multi-million £ projects for some of Europe's largest financial institutions, blah, blah, blah) so I do know a bit about that side of the fence and the stresses and long hours involved. What I found is that the people in the Private Sector complain just as much about having their pay and conditions altered as teachers do, but due to historical reasons they are not organised enough to do anything about it. If they could strike they would, just like the teachers do. Of course, when teachers strike part of it is for the good of the kids, whereas when Private Sector works complain, it's just for themselves
thus I often wonder, are complaints about teachers striking sometimes not actually about teachers striking but about other people not being in a position to be able to strike despite wanting to?
Re: Do we need teachers
Posted: 23 Apr 2014, 3:19pm
by kwackers
Si wrote:thus I often wonder, are complaints about teachers striking sometimes not actually about teachers striking but about other people not being in a position to be able to strike despite wanting to?
I can't speak for others but my complaints are entirely about the protectionist system used and the 'moral' justification (which you touched on above).
Personally, I can't say I've ever been in a position where I wanted to strike if I'm unhappy I change jobs. It's the way the modern world works and is fundamental (imo) to the reasons private sector employees object to the emotional blackmail and archaic practises that seem rife in some public sector jobs.
Re: Do we need teachers
Posted: 23 Apr 2014, 3:27pm
by georgew
I despair at the attitudes displayed in this thread.
As a Scot I've watched over the years as your Education system has undergone a sustained assault by all the governments in power. I've watched as the politicians have attempted to micro-manage the Education system: they have set countless targets; demanded more and more tests to the point that teachers are overwhelmed by the amount of statistics demanded; made "testing", rather than a thorough education the point of teaching; made the inspection body the creature of politicians rather than an independent entity; they have abolished the requirement for teachers to be qualified thereby diluting the profession and degrading the future quality of education; and have watched as the Education Secretary has insulted the whole teaching profession. As if this was not enough, I watch aghast as your educational institutions are taken out of the hands of the accountable local authorities and all local control (often against the wishes of the parents), and are handed over to those stalwart champions of integrity, the Supermarket chains which now sponsor them as "Academies". Accountability now rests with Mr Gove, or rather in actuality, the Supermarket shareholders
All this while the English public sit on their hands and do nothing, or so it seems. And after all of this, what do we find here? An OP which rails against the teachers and denigrates the profession of teaching itself on the fatuous claim that anyone can do it. More depressing still are the posts written by those who despite never having done the job, repeat the vacuous claims expressed in the OP, believing as is usually the case, that having themselves been taught, they are well-qualified to pronounce upon the profession. Not a word in all of this, of the context in which this strike takes place, which I have given above. Nothing but the closed-minded clichés more normally found in the Daily Mail.
Re: Do we need teachers
Posted: 23 Apr 2014, 3:41pm
by kwackers
georgew wrote:More depressing still are the posts written by those who despite never having done the job, repeat the vacuous claims expressed in the OP, believing as is usually the case, that having themselves been taught, they are well-qualified to pronounce upon the profession. Not a word in all of this, of the context in which this strike takes place, which I have given above. Nothing but the closed-minded clichés more normally found in the Daily Mail.
Ah the good old - "if you don't agree with me you must be a Daily Mail reader" jibe. Good to see even teachers can resort to nonsense rather than reasoned argument.
So let me rephrase what I've said since you're continually missing the point.
I never said it was a job anyone could do, what I said was that it's a job that a fair number of people are doing that shouldn't be.
What I want is a higher quality of teacher pulled from people who actually want to teach and who can genuinely inspire, rather than people who see it as a soft option and want to cruise.
This means making it easier to remove poor teachers (perhaps you've never met a poor teacher?) and reward those who can actually do the job.
As for the meddling by the government, you'd get no disagreement from me. But that doesn't change my view that a lot of the teachers out there should be serving burgers.
Of course you may disagree, believing that all the current crop of teachers are good teachers, or perhaps you think that having chosen teaching we should leave them alone regardless of their skills.
Perhaps you also simply think that regardless of how the rest of the world changes teachers should be unique in being allowed to continue with their protectionist employment policies.
Re: Do we need teachers
Posted: 23 Apr 2014, 3:49pm
by Si
kwackers wrote:Si wrote:thus I often wonder, are complaints about teachers striking sometimes not actually about teachers striking but about other people not being in a position to be able to strike despite wanting to?
I can't speak for others but my complaints are entirely about the protectionist system used and the 'moral' justification (which you touched on above).
Personally, I can't say I've ever been in a position where I wanted to strike if I'm unhappy I change jobs. It's the way the modern world works and is fundamental (imo) to the reasons private sector employees object to the emotional blackmail and archaic practises that seem rife in some public sector jobs.
Yeah but you are in the private sector with it's greener grass over the hill - if you don't like conditions you find a new employer......if a teacher doesn't like conditions then they will find exactly the same conditions at virtually all other employers. So given that they don't have the cushy options that you do, they are only left with the option of trying to change the conditions rather than the employer.
Re: Do we need teachers
Posted: 23 Apr 2014, 3:54pm
by kwackers
Si wrote:Yeah but you are in the private sector with it's greener grass over the hill - if you don't like conditions you find a new employer......if a teacher doesn't like conditions then they will find exactly the same conditions at virtually all other employers. So given that they don't have the cushy options that you do, they are only left with the option of trying to change the conditions rather than the employer.
But doesn't that all come back down to the fact it's an archaic protectionist system.
Why for example is it not a better system to simply allow schools to run their own budgets and to pay a teacher whatever they feel they need to. It seems to me the current system cushions poor teachers whilst restricting the good ones.
I appreciate there are potential issues but surely none beyond the wit of man to come up with a solution.
Re: Do we need teachers
Posted: 23 Apr 2014, 4:09pm
by georgew
kwackers wrote:georgew wrote:More depressing still are the posts written by those who despite never having done the job, repeat the vacuous claims expressed in the OP, believing as is usually the case, that having themselves been taught, they are well-qualified to pronounce upon the profession. Not a word in all of this, of the context in which this strike takes place, which I have given above. Nothing but the closed-minded clichés more normally found in the Daily Mail.
Ah the good old - "if you don't agree with me you must be a Daily Mail reader" jibe. Good to see even teachers can resort to nonsense rather than reasoned argument.
Apologies but I see no reasoned arguments in your posts, I do see jibes of the "anyone can do it"variety.
So let me rephrase what I said since you're continually missing the point.
I never said it was a job anyone could do, what I said was that it's a job that a fair number of people are doing that shouldn't be.
What I want is a higher quality of teacher pulled from people who actually want to teach and who can genuinely inspire, rather than people who see it as a soft option and want to cruise.
Of course this goes without saying and is true of all professions. I provide you with an article about Finland describing such a system and yet you make no comment on it....curious.
This means making it easier to remove poor teachers (perhaps you've never met a poor teacher?) and reward those who can actually do the job.
There are poor teachers just as there are "poor" members of any trade or profession. As to meeting them I've been responsible for firing a few, and in one case forcing them from the profession. That does not mean however that I would say such things as "I can count the number of 'good' teachers I've met on one hand" which you seem happy to do. That is far from the "reasoned argument" you seek.
As for the meddling by the government, you'd get no disagreement from me. But that doesn't change my view that a lot of the teachers out there should be serving burgers.
Of course you may disagree, believing that all the current crop of teachers are good teachers, or perhaps you think that having chosen teaching we should leave them alone regardless of their skills.
Arguing for higher standards in any profession is hardly controversial, and as for leaving them alone I take it that you are unaware of the requirements of all teachers to undertake various refreshment courses and of course their annual professional supervision which sets targets in their professional development. But then I'm sure you know all about these matters I'm sure given your experience of the profession.Perhaps you also simply think that regardless of how the rest of the world changes teachers should be unique in being allowed to continue with their protectionist employment policies.
I fear that the large numbers of teachers dismissed from their posts due to the various reorganisations that have occurred may look wistfully at those "protectionist policies " you speak of.
Re: Do we need teachers
Posted: 23 Apr 2014, 4:29pm
by kwackers
georgew wrote:I do see jibes of the "anyone can do it"variety.
No you don't - I refer you (again) to the point that addressed this.
georgew wrote:Of course this goes without saying and is true of all professions. I provide you with an article about Finland describing such a system and yet you make no comment on it....curious.
Firstly I didn't comment on Finland because I didn't see it as particularly relevant. The whole Finland article wasn't about individual processes but a more holistic approach concerning multiple processes. In the context of the UK it's decades away (if ever) from being relevant.
Secondly, it's not actually true of all professions. In my profession we have a mix of the excellent through to the monkeys. They all have their place and the mix keeps costs down.
In contrast it's difficult to see what a below average teacher would do (unless we simply accept that we can have a mix of teachers in which case why are we being subjected to the rhetoric and emotional blackmail they use when trying to justify their demands?)
georgew wrote:As to meeting them I've been responsible for firing a few, and in one case forcing them from the profession. That does not mean however that I would say such things as "I can count the number of 'good' teachers I've met on one hand" which you seem happy to do. That is far from the "reasoned argument" you seek.
Sounds like good news then.
I'm happy to say that because in my experience it's true. Am I not allowed to use my own experience? Perhaps you'd rather (despite your earlier protestation) that I simply adopt the view of the DM.
georgew wrote:Arguing for higher standards in any profession is hardly controversial, and as for leaving them alone I take it that you are unaware of the requirements of all teachers to undertake various refreshment courses and of course their annual professional supervision which sets targets in their professional development. But then I'm sure you know all about these matters I'm sure given your experience of the profession.
Higher standards, refresher courses, supervision, peer reviews, etc etc. Such is the way of life these days in any profession. (I did mention I know some teachers personally?)
P.S. I like your use of 'red ink'. Some habits die hard eh?
Re: Do we need teachers
Posted: 23 Apr 2014, 4:38pm
by Psamathe
Vorpal wrote:from the article
teachers carried out more unpaid overtime in 2013 than any other profession
bears out what I have observed.
It again illustrates an attitude (not people here but in employees). 'cos every job I have ever has you get paid for doing the job (whatever that may be and always a moving target, moving goalposts). OK, there was probably some number buried somewhere in some contract but I suspect that anybody ever raising that number would have done their career no good whatsoever. You do what is asked/expected of you, do it well, contribute, provide solutions not problems. And invariably, those who just get on with it will be those who are most capable, get most out of their work and whose careers progress. Those who start doing the "contracted hours" stuff are in the wrong job.
Ian