How accurately should I true a wheel?

[Brucey]

... was what first put Jobst Brandt onto stress relieving.
His hand squeezing technique pulls them neither towards nor away from the flange, but it worked for him. He obviously had very strong hands. I don't but I've a might heel!

What's really important is not why it works, but that it does!

I agree if it works it works, but it ought to be a science not voodoo, and some techniques ought to work more consistently than others.

If your hand squeeze doesn't pull the spokes inwards, I would suppose that it isn't the same as my squeeze, and that one of us (or both!) is doing differently to how JB suggests, too.

cheers

[531colin]

(post replaced)

[531colin]

I can see that working for the spokes that lie outside the flange, as you are bending them to lie closer to the flange. However, by the same token you are bending spokes that lie inside the flange away from the flange, and I think that is wrong.

That sounds logical Colin, except for the fact that it works. They don't break. Walking on the spokes is how the Italians used to stress relieve wheels. Seeing an Italian do this was what first put Jobst Brandt onto stress relieving.
His hand squeezing technique pulls them neither towards nor away from the flange, but it worked for him. He obviously had very strong hands. I don't but I've a might heel!

What's really important is not why it works, but that it does!

I agree that the most important thing is to have a stable, durable wheel.
I could assume that my success is entirely due to my good technique as a wheelbuilder, however I think there are other important factors at work, like rigid, box-section rims, thick alloy flanges, spokes made from decent wire and with elbow lengths matching the flange thickness, and a tension gauge that allows a tone-deaf builder to build to a precise, matched tension.
Its certainly possible to build a poor wheel out of decent components, and its possible to build a decent wheel without all of the above advantages.
However, I wouldn't like to pick just one thing and identify it as the one, whole, true answer to every wheelbuilding problem there is.

[mig]

when building professionally how much did flange thickness affect the choice of spokes to be used in regards to elbow length?

[Brucey]

IMHO it Is quite important, but not everyone agrees with my way of thought; some folk seem pathologically opposed to correcting a bad fit (e.g. by using spoke washers) which I don't understand at all.

I get the impression that machine built wheels get spokes that are effectively a deliberately bad fit, if it speeds the build process even one iota. Very many production wheels have spokes with an elbow bend length that is so long it is in excess of that required for any possible hub.

cheers

[mig]

are spoke elbow lengths just 'good guesses' against likely usage?

[Brucey]

well I think so. Spoke manufacturers and suppliers will (if left to their own devices) just stock whichever elbow length will 'fit' for most of their customers, rather than stock different elbow lengths. A few years ago DT changed their elbow length for the USA (presumably at the behest of a bulk user) and some very good wheelbuilders immediately stopped using DT spokes because they were such a poor fit in the majority of quality hubs.

Since a choice of elbow length isn't something I am used to, I just correct it where it is necessary/possible using spoke washers.

I think I have only once had spokes that I couldn't easily build into a hub because the elbow length was too short, so it can happen, but it is rare. If anything I prefer a snug fit and a soft flange; I think the spoke is better supported that way.

cheers

[mig]

yes i remember reading peter white's complaints about the DT spokes a while back.

conversely how do hub manufacturers determine flange thickness?

[Brucey]

I think they mainly just worry about strength and weight. Thickness per se isn't that important vs spoke fit, because the holes can be countersunk (by design, in manufacture or by the wheelbuilder).

IMHO they don't worry enough about strength, else

a) you wouldn't see so many hubs with such flimsy flanges (early C-Record anyone?) and

b) you wouldn't see so many (allegedly) quality hubs which are built using alloy grades that are so susceptible to SCC etc

cheers

[mig]

so for promoting wheel durability which qualities would you prioritise?
spoke head fit.
spoke quality.
spoke count.
even spoke tension.
hub flange material.
rim stiffness.
the stressing of the spokes processes during the build.
anything else?

[Brucey]

I'm not saying it is a daft question but it is like asking which ingredient in a recipe, or member of the band is the most important; they all are, or can be, and different folk might perceive the end result differently anyway.

You could have an issue with any of those items that could make the build slower and more difficult than it needs to be, or might (in some use conditions, but not others) compromise the integrity of the wheel.

If you forced me to choose at gunpoint I'd have to choose the stress relief of the wheel, because it is an unseen thing. Everything else you can look at and see if it has been done right or not, but not that. It is also the thing that most commonly compromises wheels that otherwise look as if they should be OK.

Missing from your list is corrosion protection; in the Real World of UK winter roads that is pretty important too.

cheers

[531colin]

Eyelets....single/double, or perhaps just plain holes but in an area of increased rim thickness
"directional" spoke holes to point the nipples where the spoke is heading (think Rigida Andra rims for big hubs, eg Rohloff or E bikes, even the old Wienmann Alesa with nipples in little dimples)

But my favourite "quality" for wheel durability is reducing the dish. Theres Bruceys way, by moving some spacers from the right to the left side, or you can use a tandem hub (145 to160mm OLN).....or, my favourite, move both dropouts to the right a bit.

Fair enough, it is possible to build durable, lightweight, 130mm OLN 10 speed rears......but its really what they call an "un-forced error" in tennis.
.....we could so easily have life much easier.

[Gearoidmuar]

I agree with Colin that everything is important including removing the dish.
My current tourer is a Thorn Raven Rohloff hubbed bike, with big strong Rigida Andra rims and no dish, 32 spokes. This was build by Thorn and I stress relieved it when I got it. Tensioning isn't perfect for being fully true but it's within my own specs and since then I haven't touched it. It's done about 12 tours and most of my training for tours and though I'm the new slim me now at 13.9, I was 15 12 for the first three years and toured with up to 30lb.

[531colin]

In my view, that shouldn't be a problem.
I weigh 11 stone, I last broke a spoke in a machine wheel maybe 25 years ago, as far as I remember.
You are on a wing and a prayer when somebody approaching 20 stone wants to ride a 130mm OLN 10 speed wheel with 23mm tyres......its not my area of interest, but I believe even Campag/Fulcrum, who give themselves the advantages of twice as many driveside spokes and deep stiff rims set a weight "recommendation".

[MikeF]

Moved to here from here as the subject drifted from lockrings to truing

How accurately should a wheel be trued? I've replaced a spoke (first time I've tried doing this) and now need to true the wheel. I've brought the spoke up to a reasonable tension and matters have improved but it's still not quite true. As I increase the tension there are some horrible creaking noises emerging from the spoke which makes me a little cautious about what I'm doing so how accurately do I need to true a wheel? Should I expect all sorts of noises like the creaking of a hull as I do this?

How true was the wheel before the spoke broke? If it wasn't true before, then by just adjusting the one replacement spoke you will only get it about as good as it was. Is it now just out of true where the breakage occurred? As others have indicated, spokes need to be similar tension, so I would pluck or tap, with say a screwdriver shaft, the adjacent spokes on the same side of the wheel and aim to make it sound similar. You don't want it tighter or looser than its neighbours or the wheel will very likely be out. The spokes of some factory built wheels don't seem to be that tight and don't give a good "ping". Also they tend to be uneven tension, at least after riding, and is probably why breakages occur.

I am only a novice wheel builder, but I don't rate Roger Musson's book that highly especially as he sells it; useful information and confirmation perhaps, but the fact he's only seen two of the type of rims that Sheldon Brown describes doesn't convey experience to me.

531Colin's comments, tips, and experience are very useful.