Cycling UK Forum

Vorpal wrote:I would argue that there is a limit to what you can choose (or not choose) to believe, based in culture. Someone who growsn up in a Christian culture is unlikely to believe in Hindu gods and vice versa. People can educate themselves about other cultures and religions, and a very few convert to another faith, but we are influenced by things we learn about religion growing up. It is easier to reject one's own faith than to adopt another.

As for knowing? People can as easily choose what they know, as what they believe. Maybe even more easily. They need only ignore arguments to the contrary.

Today is Wednesday (as I write this). I know it is Wednesday - I can't choose to "know" it is any other day.

wearwell wrote:

Vorpal wrote:I would argue that there is a limit to what you can choose (or not choose) to believe, based in culture. Someone who growsn up in a Christian culture is unlikely to believe in Hindu gods and vice versa. People can educate themselves about other cultures and religions, and a very few convert to another faith, but we are influenced by things we learn about religion growing up. It is easier to reject one's own faith than to adopt another.

As for knowing? People can as easily choose what they know, as what they believe. Maybe even more easily. They need only ignore arguments to the contrary.

Today is Wednesday (as I write this). I know it is Wednesday - I can't choose to "know" it is any other day.

These are very slippery concepts. You can "know" it is Wednesday, only to discover that actually you have made a mistake and it is actually Thursday. So it turns out you only "believed" it was Wednesday. In pedantically absolute terms we "know" nothing.

661-Pete wrote:

belgiangoth wrote:However you should not expect to change someone's mind in a forum chat, no matter the superiority of your argument.

Quite right. What happens on a political thread, is that people challenge each other's views.

In public school debating societies, and later in law school, arguing is a mere intellectual exercise. The challenge is to argue for or against anything. It isn't too difficult to do so, on the death penalty, fox hunting, vaccination, nuclear weapons...and so on. Well, if you can make a convincing case for anything, what are we left with? That's where belief comes in (religious, ethical, political); without it we are lost. Though people's standards vary, often judging a person by their own self-proclaimed morals is as good a measure as anything.

wearwell wrote:Today is Wednesday (as I write this). I know it is Wednesday - I can't choose to "know" it is any other day.

Which is a dreamed up concept by man to punctuate time.
It could really be Zonkday 291000,depending on you perspective,and then as PWA says you could be mistaken.

pwa wrote:

wearwell wrote:

Vorpal wrote:I would argue that there is a limit to what you can choose (or not choose) to believe, based in culture. Someone who growsn up in a Christian culture is unlikely to believe in Hindu gods and vice versa. People can educate themselves about other cultures and religions, and a very few convert to another faith, but we are influenced by things we learn about religion growing up. It is easier to reject one's own faith than to adopt another.

As for knowing? People can as easily choose what they know, as what they believe. Maybe even more easily. They need only ignore arguments to the contrary.

Today is Wednesday (as I write this). I know it is Wednesday - I can't choose to "know" it is any other day.

These are very slippery concepts. You can "know" it is Wednesday, only to discover that actually you have made a mistake and it is actually Thursday. So it turns out you only "believed" it was Wednesday. In pedantically absolute terms we "know" nothing.

I know with absolute certainty that today is Wednesday. And you do too.

These are very slippery concepts. You can "know" it is Wednesday, only to discover that actually you have made a mistake and it is actually Thursday. So it turns out you only "believed" it was Wednesday. In pedantically absolute terms we "know" nothing.[/quote]
I know with absolute certainty that today is Wednesday. And you do too.[/quote]

You are almost certainly correct to say that it is Wednesday. 99.999% probability or more. But it is just remotely possible that you have had a bump on the head and are lying in a coma, imagining this. We use the word "know" for things we "believe" with a high degree of confidence. (For what it's worth, I share your high degree of confidence that it is Wednesday.)

pwa wrote:

wearwell wrote:

pwa wrote:These are very slippery concepts. You can "know" it is Wednesday, only to discover that actually you have made a mistake and it is actually Thursday. So it turns out you only "believed" it was Wednesday. In pedantically absolute terms we "know" nothing.

I know with absolute certainty that today is Wednesday. And you do too.

You are almost certainly correct to say that it is Wednesday. 99.999% probability or more. But it is just remotely possible that you have had a bump on the head and are lying in a coma, imagining this. We use the word "know" for things we "believe" with a high degree of confidence. (For what it's worth, I share your high degree of confidence that it is Wednesday.)

To me it comes down to language and examples. For example, I "know" that the day after today will be tomorrow. I know that the Earth is more than 10 Km from the centre of the Sun. I know that 100 is a bigger number than 99. etc.

Ian

Wednesday is also
星期三
יום רביעי
onsdag
mercredi
Arbacadii
trečiadienis
วันพุธ
среда
keskiviikko
Wenerei


So, do you know the concept of that day in the middle of a 7-day week? Or the name for the day in English?

Kowledge is always relative. And what we know can change. People have known many things that have since been shown to be incorrect.

As for the day after today is tomorrow? Well you and I see it that way, but some languages and cultures do not distinguish between today and tomorrow to the extent that English does, and the language you speak influences what you know.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240 ... 1592767868

I know that the Earth is more than 10 Km from the centre of the Sun.

I think that that is another one that should be a "believe", for most people; after all, virtually no one has measured it for themselves...we are just trusting those scientists who say that they have, and in turn most of them were trusting someone who said that the tools that they used were correct.

wearwell wrote:I know with absolute certainty that today is Wednesday. And you do too.

Do you? At the time you wrote that it was Tuesday in some parts of the world and currently its Thursday in other parts.

Si wrote:

I know that the Earth is more than 10 Km from the centre of the Sun.

I think that that is another one that should be a "believe", for most people; after all, virtually no one has measured it for themselves...we are just trusting those scientists who say that they have, and in turn most of them were trusting someone who said that the tools that they used were correct.

The purpose of language is to be useful. If it is not useful it has no point. Were we to adopt the "you cannot know anything ..." then the work "know" ceases to have meaning, ceases to mean anything.

As far as anybody having measured it, even those who have, you can undoubtedly find some aspect of their work/measurement based on data they have not collected themselves. So there will always be a step in the measurement to which you can say " ... but you believe that rather than know it".

A bit like the child who just asks "why ?" to every answer given.

Ian

Si wrote:

I know that the Earth is more than 10 Km from the centre of the Sun.

I think that that is another one that should be a "believe", for most people; after all, virtually no one has measured it for themselves...we are just trusting those scientists who say that they have, and in turn most of them were trusting someone who said that the tools that they used were correct.

So it's OK to believe it's actually 10km?

TonyR wrote:

wearwell wrote:I know with absolute certainty that today is Wednesday. And you do too.

Do you? At the time you wrote that it was Tuesday in some parts of the world and currently its Thursday in other parts.

I knew that too. It was (still is) Wednesday here.

I know that the Earth is more than 10 Km from the centre of the Sun.

Ah! Are we back on Flat Earth debates, or what? Where are you Manc33, now that we need you?

Simply to exist - and without going completely mad - we have to make a lot of assumptions and take a lot on trust. Nothing wrong with that - but it's good to remind ourselves how little we actually know and how much we are trusting what we are told.

That's why we should welcome alternative views - even if they appear to be mad.

There was talk, some years ago, about making holocaust denial illegal. Most of us have read and heard enough to believe conventional history, but we don't know. We take it on trust. Meanwhile others deny anything happened, or question methods and numbers. For historians to have any credibility, that scrutiny is necessary, even though it may often be motivated by malice.

Asking apparently ridiculous questions about the seemingly obvious should often elicit the response: 'I don't know, but I read it'. For many questions, that's the best we can do.