Component packaging

[reohn2]

No he was talking about so called grey imports undercutting prices of components obtained via the official importer. If anything it's the opposite of a cartel which is an organisation or association between suppliers to keep prices up.

I think he meant both but I'll let him answer for himself to clear up the point.

[foxyrider]

One reason for the price problems is the unwillingness of for example the German Shimano distributor to supply goods to for example UK shops. This is actually against EU law, its effectively a closed shop arrangement but this sort of thing is happening and goes unchecked.

A lot of the packaging issues are not entirely due to the suppliers, the likes of Decathlon, Halfords et al choose the packaging they have, the 'normal' retail packaging is usually recyclable card / plastic these days, even the pretty Campagnolo packaging! I see the same thing with camping and other outdoor gear. The solution, short term is to strip stuff out of the excessive packaging in the shop and leave it there, if enough people did it they'd soon see the error of their ways!

[pete75]

One reason for the price problems is the unwillingness of for example the German Shimano distributor to supply goods to for example UK shops. This is actually against EU law, its effectively a closed shop arrangement but this sort of thing is happening and goes unchecked.

A lot of the packaging issues are not entirely due to the suppliers, the likes of Decathlon, Halfords et al choose the packaging they have, the 'normal' retail packaging is usually recyclable card / plastic these days, even the pretty Campagnolo packaging! I see the same thing with camping and other outdoor gear. The solution, short term is to strip stuff out of the excessive packaging in the shop and leave it there, if enough people did it they'd soon see the error of their ways!

Yes but German retailers will supply goods to the UK so it makes little difference. I think it's against EU for retailers in one country not to sell to consumers in another not what are termed B2B or business to business sales.

Disposing of most packaging is simple enough - plastic goes in the bin and cardboard on the bonfire unless it's of some use for storage etc.

[PaulB]

I've just received a pair of Ergon 'bar grips from an on-line retailer. Firstly, the packaging produced by Ergon was way 'over the top' - even though it was claimed to be bio-degradable. The retailer had encased the grips in a folded over cardboard box and wrapped it in several layers of that brown, sticky, plastic parcel tape. The whole ensemble was then housed in a blue polybag with more parcel tape around it and an address label stuck on the front. It was a Swiss Army Knife jobby to get into it and, because of the tape, the cardboard could not be re-cycled.

I once ordered a Park Tools Allen Key (the one with the blue plastic handle) on line. It arrived in a box big enough to house a pair of shoes and was filled with scrunched up paper to stop the tool rattling around! A Jiffy bag would have done. Then there are the 'Stanley' type knives that need a Stanley knife to cut through the hard plastic cases they come in and the tiny memory cards for digital cameras that are mounted on A5 size sheets of cardboard within plastic blister packs.

Our re-cycling bags are always bulging with cardboard and plastic that we don't want. Manufacturers should face financial penalties if they produce excess packaging.

[reohn2]

Disposing of most packaging is simple enough - plastic goes in the bin and cardboard on the bonfire unless it's of some use for storage etc.

But such packaging has to be made and then transported with the article around the globe.If such packaging were kept to an absolute minimum it would be an ecological step forward.

[mrjemm]

I suspect part of the matter is 'job creation' and packaging manufacturing producing money also. The economists seem to love the idea of us spending and producing, and hate the idea of stagnating markets, etc. From the same school of sustainable development as encouraging population growth and being happy fuel prices drop to allow consumers to buy more...

Grrr.

The Scandinavian countries laws on packaging tend to be very strict...

Yet, Tetrapaks are a Swedish invention. One of the worst products for being not recyclable that I am aware of. Then there's Ikea; a confusing one; on the one hand efficient design and production meaning low materials use and minimal shipping volume/mass, yet cheap products made on huge scales meaning more tat with a short lifespan to fill those landfills, and the roads in between stages of those lifespans.

Using cardboard and other organic matter is all very well for it's immediate impact if recycling etc., but really it's just more forests gone and more landfill eventually and more pollution when burnt and more fuel to produce, transport, recycle, process, destroy, etc.

Marketing marketing marketing. Buy more tat. Package that tat in pointless layers of waste. Make it pretty to sell more. Marketing tells you you need it, tells you you want it. Packaging made by marketing people, advertising made by marketing people, designs of fashion made by marketing people. All to sell more, all producing more.

We all hate television advertisements. How about the advertisements surrounding all the goods we buy? All marketing crap.

[reohn2]

I suspect part of the matter is 'job creation' and packaging manufacturing producing money also. The economists seem to love the idea of us spending and producing, and hate the idea of stagnating markets, etc. From the same school of sustainable development as encouraging population growth and being happy fuel prices drop to allow consumers to buy more...

Grrr.

The Scandinavian countries laws on packaging tend to be very strict...

Yet, Tetrapaks are a Swedish invention. One of the worst products for being not recyclable that I am aware of. Then there's Ikea; a confusing one; on the one hand efficient design and production meaning low materials use and minimal shipping volume/mass, yet cheap products made on huge scales meaning more tat with a short lifespan to fill those landfills, and the roads in between stages of those lifespans.

No one's perfect

Using cardboard and other organic matter is all very well for it's immediate impact if recycling etc., but really it's just more forests gone and more landfill eventually and more pollution when burnt and more fuel to produce, transport, recycle, process, destroy, etc.

Marketing marketing marketing. Buy more tat. Package that tat in pointless layers of waste. Make it pretty to sell more. Marketing tells you you need it, tells you you want it. Packaging made by marketing people, advertising made by marketing people, designs of fashion made by marketing people. All to sell more, all producing more.

We all hate television advertisements. How about the advertisements surrounding all the goods we buy? All marketing crap.

I couldn't agree more.

[MikeF]

Using cardboard and other organic matter is all very well for it's immediate impact if recycling etc., but really it's just more forests gone and more landfill eventually and more pollution when burnt and more fuel to produce, transport, recycle, process, destroy, etc.

By forests I presume you mean trees. Not the same thing, but I think that those that know the difference are a diminishing "breed". Trees grow so it does not necessarily mean a loss. Cardboard will biodegrade, or, if you wish, can be burnt without much pollution and can create useful heat if done properly ie produce energy . Everything we buy in shops has to be disposed at sometime. Perhaps we should stop buying?

[[XAP]Bob]

http://www.tetrapak.com/environment/rec ... d-recovery

tetrapak have moved a long way from the "incinerate it" attitude that used to be reported.

[reohn2]

Let's not forget the importance of standing trees and how they absorb Co2,converting it to oxygen,not to mention their beauty.
Let's not forget the energy used to cut down and process those trees into cardboard and coloured with inks.To then be displayed for a short time before being burned,producing more Co2 or using more energy to collect and recycle something we didn't need in the first place.
Only a clever species lacking wisdom would do such things for profit.

[tim-b]

Hi

Mrs b worked in the shoe manufacturing business in the 90s
IIRC, they used to have to weigh each part of the packaging and declare weight, materials, etc to be licenced to conform with German regs. The licence cost a fee (determined by the declaration) which in turn contributed to waste collection and recycling. If you declared it wrongly it cost
You didn't have to join the licencing scheme, but you were then responsible for all collection and recycling of your packaging and customers could see from the packaging whether a company had joined in or not

Different councils recycle different materials. Our local council will collect and recycle most stuff bi-weekly, the County Council tip recycles most of the rest, and our local supermarkets often have Tetrapak bins, etc

I often wonder how effective recycling is. How much of the stuff collected actually gets recycled, is it the wrong type of hard plastic for example? We used to get some left in the boxes that had embossed recycling logos, but that doesn't happen any more

Regards
tim-b

[[XAP]Bob]

Let's not forget the importance of standing trees and how they absorb Co2,converting it to oxygen,not to mention their beauty.
Let's not forget the energy used to cut down and process those trees into cardboard and coloured with inks.To then be displayed for a short time before being burned,producing more Co2 or using more energy to collect and recycle something we didn't need in the first place.
Only a clever species lacking wisdom would do such things for profit.

To be fair burning trees merely releases short term Carbon - it's all short term carbon cycle.

Burning oil and coal is not short term cycle - it's long term sequestration being reversed.

[mrjemm]

Using cardboard and other organic matter is all very well for it's immediate impact if recycling etc., but really it's just more forests gone and more landfill eventually and more pollution when burnt and more fuel to produce, transport, recycle, process, destroy, etc.

By forests I presume you mean trees. Not the same thing, but I think that those that know the difference are a diminishing "breed". Trees grow so it does not necessarily mean a loss. Cardboard will biodegrade, or, if you wish, can be burnt without much pollution and can create useful heat if done properly ie produce energy . Everything we buy in shops has to be disposed at sometime. Perhaps we should stop buying?

Indeed forests and trees are not the same thing. I mean forests. Tree farms are not forests, and when forest products are produced, forests are gone. Tree farms do not make up for this, they are not anywhere near the same thing as old growth. ENvironmental 'mitigation' is such a poor relative of what is destroyed in the name of 'development'.

And yes, we should stop buying, that is pretty much exactly what I am getting at; we buy too much, produce too much, consume too much. Is that piece of cardboard tubing that your new Ergon grip was attached to preferable to shelter for a bird? Is that cake you had on your tea stop more important than the home of an Orang Utan (palm oil)? Is your cycle track being smooth more important than the tree next to it, and it's inhabitants, the root of which pushed up a slight ridge?

Do individual inner tubes ned to be sold in boxes? Do we need blister packs for the handful of cable ends?

[beardy]

Do individual inner tubes ned to be sold in boxes?

Probably they do, I have had to throw away more than one inner tube that I have left unpackaged and it is quite clear that it was the bits that could see the light of day which were perished.

[mrjemm]

http://www.tetrapak.com/environment/recycling-and-recovery

tetrapak have moved a long way from the "incinerate it" attitude that used to be reported.

In UK? I've never seen any reference to recycling of such packaging in the UK. And I didn't notice anything in Norway recently. Or US on my holiday this year. That they are promoting their 'green credentials' with a page like this does not mean having moved a long way. I am very very curious where they get the figures they quote. (Translation: very doubtful of the truth in them).