So, what is snobbery?

[Flinders]

I'm confused. Is cycling now part of "Labour Values", too?

Dunno, but it might help reduce her BMI. Now is that snobbish? Or catty? Or possibly even sexist? I bet if I said it about Eric Pickles it wouldn't be considered sexist....

On one occasion when I posted something rather 'fattist' about the egregious Mr Pickles on the Grauniad's comments columns, I got taken to task over it. It seems that in a PC climate you can't be fattist about anyone. Also, something derogatory about Ms Angie Lee (remember: she of the B-HIT campaign) aroused some ire right here, IIRC.

OK. OK. What I'd say about Ms Thornberry is, keep up the cycling! It might even help you to shed a few of those pounds. And I'd be speaking as one obese person (currently BMI in low 30s ) to another. If that's fattist, so be it.

On the Grauniad you can get called out for anything. One minute you're PC, the next you're too old fashioned, then you're not sophisticated enough, then you're a snob, then you're 'one of them feminists', or you're an 'old-fashioned trade unionist leftie' the next minute you 'must work in the public sector' (I don't) or 'must be well off and live in Islington' (I'm not and I don't) simply because you comment there (usually said by someone with extreme right wing views who is also, err, commenting there... .and then you get the people who hate immigration and point out that because of it they have left the UK for good to live abroad (they're my own personal favourites).
I've been accused of being everything over the years from fascist to leftie, rich to envious benefit claimant, you name it, whilst always holding and expressing the same views. I wouldn't worry about what anyone there thinks.
You can't please everyone.

[gaz]

.

[661-Pete]

...And I'd be speaking as one obese person (currently BMI in low 30s ) to another. If that's fattist, so be it.

What does BMI actually show? When Mike Tyson was at his fighting peak he had a BMI of 34........

Perhaps I should have put the word 'obese' in quotes. Yes I do bulge a bit in places. But some people are a whole lot worse. When nature calls, I can still see what's happening down there!

[pete75]

I'm confused. Is cycling now part of "Labour Values", too?

It was certainly part of socialist values for years. Just google the history of the Clarion cycling club.

[al_yrpal]

I don't really think that it was snobbery, I think it was just a convenient opportunity for opponents to skewer the Labour elite. If you saw the bloke, would you really hold him up as an example to emulate - I don't think so… And, if he did a close pass on you on the road in his van what would you think? Quite possibly he is a thoroughly nice family man but like many UKIPers fed up with the disappearance of the more English culture and values that existed in his youth. Hence the flags. Its noticeable that roadside burger vans often fly these flags and everyone knows what they actually stand for. Its quite difficult to have a discussion on this subject in England these days.

I'll get my coat…

Al

[squeaker]

Its quite difficult to have a discussion on this subject in England these days.

I'll get my coat…

Don't forget your flag...

[Bonefishblues]

Its noticeable that roadside burger vans often fly these flags and everyone knows what they actually stand for.

I don't, what do they stand for in that context?

[Psamathe]

So a politician gets a pasting for dissing White Van Man - and the outcome's all over the tabloids of course.

What is really surprising (and disappointing) is how upset Ed Milliband has got over what has to be a minor incident. You've got terrorists beheading British Aid Workers overseas, economy gone down the toilet, all but the 1% getting poorer by the day, etc. and Ed's close friends "have never seen him so angry" over a twated photo with no text. He need to get a grip on things. If he gets so worked up about this and get to be PM, how on earth will he handle some of the foreign leaders he will have to deal with.

Gets worrying.

Ian

[pete75]

This is the chap concerned -

[gaz]

.

[beardy]

In this case it is a clash of "styles".

The MP is seen as sneering at somebody because he clearly isnt worried about trying to fit her (or my) ideas of "refined behaviour".

I dont believe class (and certainly not wealth) comes into it, it is more about style and attitude.
A better determiner is that of formal education (or emulating formal educated behaviour).

My guess is that our* white van man got a trade after leaving school and has done well for himself.
Others who instead went on to university (probably from the house next door) have always considered themselves better and more deserving as individuals and do sneer at those they left behind for their uncouth style.

When they let the public see (what they suspect anyway) this is how they really feel, IT IS A BIG VOTE LOSER and that is why Ed is so angry.
It doesnt affect the Conservatives as much as they dont even pretend to be the same as white van man, just his benevolent betters from another class.

Personally I reckon the MP was just having a laugh at white man van and his flags as is common enough on any Radio 4 evening comedy show but she forgot that the majority of the electorate consider Radio 4 pretentious to say the least.

It was good to see that some of the old school Labour were (genuinely) angry at her (Skinner and Mann). I must admit that having been a white van man and other similar social/work groups they can often be just as unpleasant as you imagine but I (of course) was perfectly nice.

There are terms used like "Neanderthal" and "knuckle draggers" which are used in the minds of the elite. I honestly dont know which side I fall on, if it is a time for socialising and theorising then I would avoid them but if things are going hard and you need somebody you can rely on and will stay true to their values, I would turn to them. I just dont hold their values as much any more.

Of course once politics gets involved all free and honest comment is out of the window. I reckon the fact that I am substantially less well off than our* white van man here means that I can get away with saying some such things.

* I am not concerned with what this WVM is actually like, I mean what half of us are thinking he is like (and the other half are thinking that we are thinking he is like).

[661-Pete]

Well, the Daily Heil has not surprisingly jumped in on the act. They appear to have driven this fellow all the way to Islington so that he can pose - with flag - right outside Ms Thornberry's yellow front door. Isn't that harassment surely?. If someone posed a big menacing looking guy in front of my front door and then started taking photos, I'd call the police.

They also managed to mis-spell Ms Thornberry's name in the caption. Possibly deliberately.

The next picture shows Ms Thornberry cycling, with the caption "Oh your bike". Isn't that snobbish, patronising and demeaning? Remember Norman Tebbitt?

I'm sorry, I consistently refuse to post links to that vile periodical. Call me snobbish if you like, but I'm resolute on this. You can easily find the article for yourself.

If we are being governed by the Press in this way, Gawd help us!

[beardy]

If we are being governed by the Press in this way, Gawd help us!

We are, he wont!

The WVM's association with the Daily Heil does rather support those assumptions that I was suggesting half of us were making about this WVM.

Dont forget that stereotypes can be broken, one of my regular cycling companions is a builder with a white van who reads the DM and supports Britain First.

[Flinders]

I'm confused. Is cycling now part of "Labour Values", too?

It was certainly part of socialist values for years. Just google the history of the Clarion cycling club.

There's still a Clarion left near Burnley, isn't there? I went there once when a teenager with a walking group, and not long ago there was something on the radio about it.

[horizon]

Its quite difficult to have a discussion on this subject in England these days.

I'll get my coat…

Al

The really difficult thing to have a discussion about these days is indeed White Van Man. Ms Thornberry did everyone a favour by raising the issue (brilliant photo BTW and the photo-journalists must be gutted at not having taken it themselves). Like Black people and immigrants before them, they musn't be criticised. Well here goes:

WVM is that section of the white working class that is politically conservative and very black and white in their views and approach to life. They have IMV a defined and limited view of the extent of their connection to the world in general. Good people they may be but environmentalists they are not. They were Thatcher voters and still (as this man said he is) Conservatives. The problem for Labour is that they must win them over in order to get into power. God help us though if Labour changes its policies to fit the world view of these people.

These are down to earth people that I have every respect for: but I don't believe that their simplistic and polarised interpretation of society can solve the problems of ethnicity, migration, war, economy and the environment that we currently face.